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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 334 (78426)
01-14-2004 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Abshalom
01-13-2004 7:33 PM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Abshalom,
Great questions. Most stimulating!
Question #1: Does your statement, taken in total, personify evil? I mean aren't you representing the concept of evil as an incarnate entity with independent intelligence?
Maybe. My definition would call the meterorites that destroyed so many species, before men were around, evil, with or without the presence of a God to see His creation destroyed, or an evil angel dragging the meterorite into our orbit. Evil is live spelled backwards, so anything that reverses the flow of life, including diversity in life, is evil.
But, if there are higher beings, events that "grieve" these beings are more evil. Without such beings, a predation becomes moot, not necessarily evil, because the life of the prey ends, but the predator lives better. Maybe. An abundant predator that eats the last prey individual commits an evil act, because now both will go extinct.
But with a higher being, say a human shepherd of the prey, the act of predation, say of a wolf on the shepherd's favorite lamb, is evil. Because the life of the higher being (and the highest being gets to call who or what is higher--that's what higher means, in part.) is diminished. A good shepherd keeps the wolves eating the rabbits that compete with his sheep, keeping the mystique of wolves, population control of the rabbits, and his favorite lamb. Good, not evil.
Question #2: Am I to understand that "evil, of course, is best defined in regard to the most enlightened subject in the system" means that you are defining evil by comparison to man as the "most elightened subject in the system" or is some other entity "the most enlightened subject?"
Again, maybe. That's for us to find out. We can assume that we are here, but most people are convinced (how? we wonders!) that there are also at least two levels of higher beings in our ecosystem, angels, including demons, and this Person, Jehovah, "my shepherd" who reports about Himself that He created everything, including angels.
Question #3: If the answers to #1 and #2 are "yes," are you suggesting that Evil Incarnate exists to outwit or be outwitted by Man? (Q3bIs this the Essene "Battle of Light and Darkness" theory? If so:
No, "evil incarnate" as I understand orthodox theology, exists because it was created with free will, which it used to become, or invent, evil. It proves that Jehovah is good for His word. He told the angels they were free to love Him (with certain consequences) or not (other consequences.) One took Him up on it, and choose to not love Him. Without that love relationship, this angel fell into rebellion, pride, and other ways that destroyed life. Life on earth, at least. Was evil.
But, when man was created, he was given dominion over the earth which apparently had been the rule of the angel who chose rebellion, not love. This put man in conflict with the devil, who already had various other reasons to "hate" men. Men exist to outwit the devil, which they can do, according to Jehovah, if they refuse to "eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil," but do eat from "the tree of life." Same choice the devil had, actually. Live by loving and walking with God, or live by your own independent knowledge of good and evil. The latter is evil because it kills men and their love-life with God. So, men and the devil are "enemies" because of the issue of who rules earth. Also, men being made in the image of God, and being loved by God, Satan can hurt God by hurting men. This men must work to avoid, by outwitting evil. Note that "devil" is "d' evil."
Question #4: Did YHVH put Evil here and allow it to remain as an eternal challenger of mankind to kind of outwit the morally and mentally feable and be outwitted by the more enlightened of our species? Is this YHVH's brand of survival of the fittest? Does this drive evolution of the species?
Sort of. YHVH created man with the same free will He gave the devil, and He remains good for His word. If we want to use it to join the devil's rebellion, or start one of our own, He will let us do so. He promises us certain consequences for either choice, and allows either the devil or us to remain around long enough to experience those promises. There are lots of selections, or choices going on here, and strength of moral character, or mind don't really matter. It's all a matter of choosing life over death, hating evil. Those who choose life with integrity, bringing to bear as much of their human strength as they are able ("with all their heart") find life, and get strengthened and enlightened to get more life (a bigger heart). Actually, there are seven related choices that determine all: life, truth, law, "fear" of God, serving God, a good name, favor with men. But it works like this: first you recognize the importance of responsibility, that you are the one who is deciding what's going to happen. It's you doing the choosing. Abdication of responsibility is a default choice of death. With responsibility, you choose life, with all its pains, sorrows, labors, trials, tests, joys, loves, pleasures, wars. Then you realize you need truth to live, so you choose to receive the love of truth. Truth leads you to discover the laws of the universe (including God), which you come to love and choose to keep. Then you realize that you need a proper suite of emotions to keep these laws, so you choose the proper emotions to make law-keeping more effective. Fear (of God) is the least palatable, so you choose it first. The others just come along. With this fear, you choose to serve God, for fear of what He will do to you if you don't obey. As you obey, you get great rewards of riches and pleasure, but realize that you will have more life if you spend these to get a good name, and to make people think well of you. So you end up choosing to spend all these riches trying to help people.
Thus the species is brought to greater glory. Evolved, if you like.
Question #5: Is this just some cosmic joke?
No, although Jehovah gets a good laugh at unbelievers trying to do the "God is dead" thing.
Question #6: If a Neolithic man popped into Detroit next week and stuck his tongue on a stainless steel flag pole and it froze fast to the surface, and you were to ask him "what gives?" (Assuming he could express himself in English) Would he say, "A demon has a hold of my tongue and is punishing me for the trangression of desecrating this sacred icon?" Of course you might have to free his frozen tongue from the evil that had outwitted him before you could understand his answer.
Probably not. He might say, after I freed him, that a demon made him do the stupid thing of putting his tongue on the flag-pole. Reports of missionaries from visits to near-stone-age tribes, always commenting on how stupid these people were, say that these peoples could actually see the demons.
I have found that the most human way to choose life is to say it socially, think about it sapienistically, and accept responsibility for my choice. Language, society, intellect, free will. That's a big part of what humanity is about.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2004 7:33 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2004 3:59 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 334 (79212)
01-18-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Abshalom
01-15-2004 3:59 PM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Abshalom,
Now, I think I know what name I should use, if I do a search for my destiny in the Bible Codes. Thanks!
But to your post,
Are you saying that from your point of view, one can assign the quality of evil to an inanimate object (not endowed with life or spirit) with or without the existence of God and his definition of evil?
Yes.
3) Wouldn't assigning the quality of evil to a rock make that rock an animate object from the point of view that it possesses a 'spirit' or 'consciousness?' Is this really a Judeo/Christian concept, or isn't this kind of theology rather pagan, animistic, voodoo, or whatever?
Yes, but even pagans deserve some sort of break. I'll hate their animistic rock with them, the one that stubs their toe.
4) So, is it your view that a meteor is something other than an inanimate rock flying through space? Or are you setting up some kind of trick question deal ... like the meteor becomes or assumes evil when it becomes a meteorite that destroys species ... otherwise it is just an inanimate rock flying through space?
In my dedication to overcoming evil with good, I would declare a meteor coming to earth to extinquish my beloved Dickcissels as evil, and would happily go after it's destruction. Other rocks spinning through space are actually good, interesting, something to study.
Come on, Stephen, you're the dude who claims to have active conversations with God. As a scientist, did it never occur to you to ask him how the species became extinct and whether he was there to witness it?
He was there, and it pissed Him off. "Holy Spirit." He said, "Go down there and assess the damage." and to Yeshua, "I'm going to get Satan for this!" (loose translation)
how can an inanimate rock's collision with Earth and the resulting physical and ecological devastation be characterized as evil when it was the destruction that created the niche for the development of humans (whom you characterize as "the favorite lambs" on whose behalf all natural predation is not evil)?
No, no, He used the mess Satan made to create a place for us, to use us to "get Satan." Deeper vengence, to have Satan's own handiwork turned on him, to shame him, rob him of his power and authority.
have you been out drinking with Buz?
I wish.
The fact that IN MODERN ENGLISH, evil spelled backwards coincidentally renders L-I-V-E is totally irrelevant to your supposition that the flow of life can even be reversed. It's like your trying to say that the flow of life actually can be reversed and it's proven by the fact that live spelled backwards is evil.
Vita spelled backwards is Ativ. What the hell is ativ? Dog spelled backwards is god. Does that mean that God is a dog turned inside out, or that a dog running backwards would prove anything metaphysical?
I do most science for fun, getting serious from time to time when a lot is at stake. The fact that vita spelled backward means nothing is part of the reason I quit sending mine around. But, I walk dogs as often as I can, because it's easier to pray, "Lord, give me that kind of energy, at the thought of going out with You! Make me that delighted in my food, make me love Your touch so much, etc." Looking at dogs is backwards from looking at God. In an instructive way.
Divine intent or coincidence? Duh. He has His hand in everything important. That, in fact, is what the word "important" means. The "portending" part of important refers to God involvement. Why I know that my "vita" is not important. Won't always manifest the same way, of course. But when it's there, use it. What I wish I always said. This is why the "natural selection, random mutation" of evolution is so implausible.
Man oh man! Now we not only have demons riding inside people (voodooism), demons residing inside meteors (animism), but angels physically dragging meteors into the path of an oncoming planet (space gholem tractor-beamism)! Oh, wait a minute, I just realized, angel spelled incorrectly is angle, and that proves that angels can alter the course of meteors.
There you go, wanting to prove things again! But, yes, damn, we need to figure those evil angelic suckers out! "Get the truth before the truth gets you!"
Stephen, I guess my question would be, "If God so loved the world, wouldn't he take the time to set the meteor back on a non-collision course?"
Nowadays, I sure hope so. In those days, the responsible created free will agent out there wanted the meteor to strike the earth, so He was reluctant to interfere with His delegated authorities. But, ta da! here we are. "Lord, any meteors out there on a collision course with earth, we ask You to move out of the way. For the Dickcissel's sake. No, don't worry about me--You can take me home any time or way you like. What about other souls? Oh, yeh, that's good. Keep the meteors away so John Doe down the street has a bit more time to think about changing his mind about dealing with You. Yeh, I'll drop by for a visit, keep the issue front-burner. And You fix the meteors? Sounds like a deal to me. Thanks, Dad. Sure love ya."
Amen?
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2004 3:59 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 334 (81059)
01-27-2004 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by nator
01-14-2004 7:28 AM


Re: The Evil Power of Supernatural Inventions
Schrafinator,
I just learned that checking the replies await part of my username misses double replies, and this interesting set of comments by you has been neglected. Sorry.
Now, we are discussing the term "evil" which is a part of our language and history, and wondering whether science can be used to help us deal with the evil around us. You ask for a scientific definition of the word, which I gave, because I find science useful, and hope that it's power can help us in every part of life. Anyway, you ask,
So, was the extinction of the dinosaurs "evil"?
By the definition I gave, it was to them, certainly while it was going on, while the beasts were dying, suffering, failing to find mates, or food, or warmth. While their W was very low.
But it is possible that dinosaurs were artificially selected creatures, created by Satan in rebellion to God. So, He sent a meterorite to kill them. To God, in this scenario, the extinction of the dinosaurs was not evil to Him. We do not think it evil to swat fly, but the fly might think so.
All the Biologists over the last 100 years are under demonic influence?
If the hypothesis of demon existence is true, then everyone, everywhere is always under some degree of demonic influence, to varying degrees. Just as all earthworms in my yard are all under the influence, to some degree, of the robins that they cannot see, smell, or hear, but which prey on them.
The evolution of bacteria we can observe in a petri dish is also demonic?
What you can observe is some bacteria with an identifiable genotype having a higher W than others. But, how do you separate out natural and artificial selection? How do you distinquish such selection as being carried out by a demon, with the agenda of producing a disease for humans? By God, with the agenda of producing a microbe that will allow asphalt to recycle? By humans, hoping to produce a different cheese? Natural selection poses a nice null hypothesis, but other things could be going on. So, Dossey reports prayer experiments on changes in such situations, with interesting results. It's a beginning.
Bald religiously-based assumption.
If we are going to do H-D research on religious ontological ideas, we have to begin with their assumptions, understanding how they are supposing things are.
Do you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of demonic influence, or only those who ask you questions you can't seem to answer?
Only noting that under this ontology, anyone not making an effort to resist demons is apt to influenced by them. As the hypothesized ontology gets more and more confirmed, the likelihood of this being the case with you or anyone gets higher and higher. Hence, the moral responsibility to warn our neighbors of a danger they might be in, but are unaware of.
Or I'm glad we both don't live in Salem back when folks there got a little crazy.
Back then, I suppose those folks felt about what they were doing the way the Germans felt about what they were doing to the Jews in the 1930's, or as we feel today about abortion. Lots of death. Have you ever seen the film, the Silent Scream?
Define "enlightened" in a scientific sense, please.
IQ?
Now, we had a discussion about unsupported assumptions. It was my reply to some you seemed to me to be making. They are not encouraged here, so I felt no need to embarrass you by responding. But you insist,
Stephen: The beauty of science is that supernatural inventions, or models, can be shown implausible through proper testing.
Schrafinator: Um, no they can't.
The supernatural can't be shown to be anything at all by science.
Science copmpletely ignores the supernatural.
Science is use of naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena.
Your comments are unsupported. There is a very rich literature out there on H-D science as it explores the Noetic or supernatural.
By that definition, just about everything is, or could be, evil, including God.
I suppose that the devil might think God is evil, but since God is above the devil in IQ, or intelligence and power, He gets the final say.
As to my theological notions about Satan is up to, or how he works, hypothetically, I mostly extend my experience with human "evil" agents and how they work. Intelligence agents subterfuging in an enemy nation, for example.
Remember, I am not interested in trying to win a debate with you over this, only alert you to a danger you might be in, and encourage you to choose to study both the epistemology and the ontology of the matter. Get the truth before the truth gets you.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by nator, posted 01-14-2004 7:28 AM nator has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 334 (91991)
03-12-2004 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by badandigood
01-23-2004 11:20 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
badandigood,
Sorry to be so late with this reply. Totally missed your post. Sorry.
You asked,
You will also need to "receive the love of the truth"
Go to the person you know personally who you most trust to teach you. Ask them this question: "Teach me the rules or laws governing how we know whether a given statement is true or not. I am especially interested in learning the rules set out by the God, Jehovah, in the scriptures. But, it is very important that I learn not only what those rules are, but am trained in how they are applied."
Example rule: "Truth is beauty, and beauty truth."
Example rule from scripture: "If anyone thinks he knows something, he doesn't yet know anything as he ought to."
But you need to "receive" this, which means have someone teach you, personally.
If there is a God in heaven, I guarentee that you will not live unless you do this.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by badandigood, posted 01-23-2004 11:20 PM badandigood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by badandigood, posted 03-18-2004 11:21 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 334 (91996)
03-12-2004 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
01-06-2004 12:58 AM


Re: Moby Dick
phatboy,
Just found this post. You ponder,
Why would such coding exist, unless God or some superior intelligence knew that it would take humanities own bright minds to sift through the information and literature to find the codes and decipher them. Perhaps we could deduce that some form of superior intelligence is giving some elaborate puzzle problems to some of the bright minds on earth. Maybe this superior intelligence knew just what "Bait" was needed to hook their interest.
There have not been, in the history of the world, times as spiritually interesting as these times. My pastor is an historian, with an extensive library that he makes me read through. We are at a unigue time in history, historically. Not especially prophetically. That's not what I'm talking about. But in the history of how people have dealt spiritually with the scriptures and their message. I'm not 100% sure I understand why the ELS's have appeared now, although Satinover's hypothesis makes some sense. But they have, and at the very least, they confirm my own sense that we are called to spiritual action, responses to the scriptures, in ways that have never happened before and been documented.
Prepare the way of the Lord, and get ready to something entirely new, different from anything you have ever heard of. Something biblical.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-06-2004 12:58 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Gilgamesh, posted 03-12-2004 2:25 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 334 (92023)
03-12-2004 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Gilgamesh
03-12-2004 2:25 AM


Re: Moby Dick
hey, Gil,
Sorry, I had forgotten to even keep asking about your number. You know how it is with prayer. You have to ask and keep on asking.
I know it is your opinion that the codes are nonsense, and it is mine that they are a response from God to the fact that we are at war with demons. The very existance of codes, which I believe has been affirmed by legitimate science beyond reasonable doubt, is evidence of this war. Their main value is to assure the transmittal of the surface text of the bible, in the face of enemy (demonic) disruption and deception.
Because you, evidently, make no provision to reject demonic influence in your own thinking, while I agree with the masses of humanity that demons make people think ineffectively, I naturally am unpersuaded by your opinion per se. Nor by that of the code critics, who are only arguing anyway that those who defend codes are fooling themselves. Granted, fooling yourself is a potential problem, but it is as likely to be a problem for the critics as the defenders. And, so far, the defenders have shown more intellectual integrity.
Getting you to agree with me about this, would be like getting an old-timey hat-maker to agree that mercury was bad stuff to work with. The hatter is already quite mad because of the mercury, and so unable to get the argument. I say, "take lots of vitamin C, to get rid of your mercury, and you will be able to understand the point." But the hatter is too far gone, pity.
Now, Lord, Gil has a number in mind, and wants me to guess it, as a test of "prayer." What do You want to say about this?
What's that? If I could hear well enough to get numbers from You, I should ask for the lottery? Hmmmm. But, what about Gil? Would that convince him? .... When Gil does the experiment You proposed, then you will consider doing the one he proposes.
Now, Gil, it's late, and He's not in a very good mood. Perhaps if I ask later.
Cheers,
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Gilgamesh, posted 03-12-2004 2:25 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
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