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Author Topic:   Facts are Overrated
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 61 (784326)
05-16-2016 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
05-16-2016 5:29 PM


How so? I don't believe that discussion turned on a disagreement about facts but rather on what concerns each side valued over other concerns. Is there some way we can point to that discussion and say that some folks had biases that they merely confirmed during discussion?
Any of us could certainly cite concerns where lefties (who seem to make up a larger portion of the vax deniers) and righties (who seem to make up a larger portion of the climate deniers) appear to be looking at only facts tht confirm their position. But not every dispute that breaks down along ideological lines can be explained away in such a way.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 05-16-2016 5:29 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 05-17-2016 7:11 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 61 (784335)
05-16-2016 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coyote
05-16-2016 10:17 PM


Re: Heinlein, on facts
Piling up facts is not science--science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning; a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness. ... A powerful theory not only embraces old facts and new but also discloses unsuspected facts
When I read the title, I thought the topic was about the observation in your Heinlein quote. It is true that accumulated facts are not science. Even if creation as described in Genesis was an accurate description of how the universe came to be, the story without the theory and evidence simply is not science. That is a point that could have been made in Bertot's thread.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2016 10:17 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 61 (784371)
05-17-2016 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
05-17-2016 7:11 AM


, if facts barely matter and being right is accidental then the positions of the North and South on slavery likely had little to do with facts.
I disagree with the idea that the facts did not matter or barely mattered. The positions of the two sides on slavery had much to do with the facts. In fact I would offer that there was little to no disagreement on the facts or of their implication.
The course of the country under after about 1840 was leading to a complete political domination of the South by the Northern states, with the question of slavery's expansion (or lack thereof) into new territories being tightly wound around that domination. The question of whether slavery was good or evil was not the important question, but instead the question was about whether new states would be free or slaveholding, thus disturbing a precarious balance between the two quite distinct parts of the country. Beyond the political balance, there was the financial implication of free non slaving folk trying to compete against slave labor in the free territories. Also, slave holding states often moved their slaves west ward when they attempted to flee. Having the new territories being free would have uncapped that safety valve.
Of course there were lots of aggravating circumstances and I don't want to turn this into a discussion of civil war history. Let me just suggest the facts mattered immensely and dominated the politics of the antebellum era. We can look back on that era now and overlay the evil of slavery on top of those issues. But there is not much point in doing that because for the most part the civil war was not about abolition at all.
In that case neither can take credit for being right or blame for being wrong
Right or wrong about what? About slavery?
I respectfully disagree. The justifications for slavery given by the South don't stand up to even the lightest moral scrutiny and plenty of people recognized that even prior to the early 19th century. I fully credit the positions of those who found a way to go about their lives without relying on that institution.
I would make the same observation about people who deny global warming, and that's based on current views of right and wrong and not some look back from the future. One side has facts on their side and the other has anti-facts.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 05-17-2016 7:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 05-18-2016 8:26 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 16 of 61 (784393)
05-17-2016 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Blue Jay
05-17-2016 1:12 PM


Based on this information, it's easy to conclude that the science I do is pretty much useless, because my efforts to communicate it with the end users does not result in internalization or improvement of the ways things operate.
It is sad. But you should take comfort in the fact that some people will get it. It may be difficult to move all of us, but that does not mean that progress is impossible. It just means that the dynamic of implementing change involves inertia. Fortunately that can also mean that once you've built up momentum, it is just as difficult to distract people from the truth as it is to convince them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Blue Jay, posted 05-17-2016 1:12 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 21 of 61 (784486)
05-18-2016 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
05-18-2016 8:26 AM


I was only suggesting a look at the Civil War through the lens of that premise.
Understood.
I am suggesting that such a look does not produce a worthwhile result. Firstly because it does not reflect what actually happened, and secondly because I don't feel we should give people a free pass for dismissing the facts when making decisions. It has been pointed out that people often do behave in that way. I accept that premise. It does not follow that people who ignore the facts are blameless or that their resulting actions are forgiveable on that basis. The facts should matter.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 05-18-2016 8:26 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 8:13 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 61 (784638)
05-20-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Percy
05-20-2016 8:13 AM


I believe it does produce a very worthwhile result, and it *is* what happened.
Then we know exactly where are point of disagreement exists. I've explained my position and I've indicated the facts that I believe really drove the two sides during the civil war. I'm not sure what you belief is based on. But ultimately, not being convinced by the evidence, however popular that might be, is not something that we need to accept as just what humans do. Because not all of us do that.
But what of people who merely believe what everyone else around them believes?
If what they believe is evil, and there are facts available to them showing exactly that, which is the premise you have invoked here, then they are responsible for their beliefs and they've earned the judgment according to those facts.
You seem to think you've defined some aspect of human nature that people are powerless to deal with. I don't buy that at all.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 8:13 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 4:33 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 61 (784644)
05-20-2016 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Percy
05-20-2016 4:33 PM


But all of us *do* "do that." It's part of being human. Some of us are better at separating the wheat from the chaff when choosing our evidence
Sure, and if your thought processes fail to allow you to discriminate between good and evil then you might end up on the wrong side of history. In my view, that is rightly so.
That's not a premise I ever invoked, and I would argue against it. Northerners and Southerners likely strongly disagreed about the facts and what they implied.
I'll admit to some confusion about exactly what your argument in this thread is. I've listed facts that I believe drove the two sides and their implications for the two sides. I did not note any rebuttal on your part. Nor do I see any suggestion of what facts and implications the two sides disagreed on, so I cannot even try to address that question. Maybe you will fill me in.
But beyond that, your premise is that the facts have no power to convince. Does not applying that principle mean that some facts that should have led to a correct decision actually were available and that one side or the other acted despite those facts? If not, then how is your principle even applicable? Are you actually defending something entirely, namely being wrong out of ignorance?
It seems to me that you are asking me to accept not being convinced by facts as some kind of cover for what I consider evil behavior because we all have some tendency not to be persuaded by facts. I disagree with that completely. And the idea that people should be excused for just believing the same things as the people around them, despite the fact that the facts were available is also not something with which I am going to agree.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 4:33 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 7:10 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 61 (784651)
05-20-2016 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Percy
05-20-2016 7:10 PM


Okay. Quoting from the Globe piece again that was the reason for this thread: "Recently, a few political scientists have begun to discover a human tendency deeply discouraging to anyone with faith in the power of information. It’s this: Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds." Why are they wrong?
They are not wrong. Unlike you, they don't generalize from the premise that facts don't necessarily have the power to change our minds to the point of making that a principle on which to accept fighting for reprehensible ideas.
And they don't go further to indicate that people who do accept the facts and are persuaded to act accordingly deserve no credit. In short, the article does not justify this:
Percy writes:
In that case neither can take credit for being right or blame for being wrong
Seriously. No credit for accepting the facts and being right?
The article's premise provides a basis to explain behavior. But not a basis to accept such behavior and certainly no basis on which not to elevate those who are absolutely right.
Later I argued that being right could be accidental
What I read was you simply proposing ("if") that being right could be merely accidental without backing that up, and then proceeding from there to some conclusions that I do not accept. The article does not support that proposal, and the proposal results in some pretty silly maybes. I should accept that William Lloyd Garrison was accidentally right about the evils of slavery? Or that Frederick Douglas was accidentally right? That neither is worth celebrating beyond pointing out that they were lucky to be on the right side? Is that really your position?
Edited by NoNukes, : change wording, insert accidental.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 7:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 10:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 61 (784658)
05-21-2016 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
05-20-2016 10:07 PM


I don't think that posing a speculative question implies any conclusions
Fair enough. I have provided my answer to your speculation as well as a couple of reasons why I think your speculative proposition ought to be rejected. Your reasoning leads to some fairly difficult to swallow (for me at least) consequences. Perhaps those are sufficient to convince you to rethink your position, and perhaps they were not. Surely my response is sufficient to show why I disagree.
ABE:
Ultimately I think these kind of gymnastics are not required anymore. It was important to the country that the North find some way to forgive their opponent in the civil war. They managed to do so. It is less important today that we do so and no reason for us to to it by resurrecting Lost Cause type excuses or manufacturing ways that they were wrong only by accident. You have claimed that we must have memorials to Southern heroes in order to make sure we do not repeat their mistakes. I don't see how minimizing the abhorrence of their cause helps accomplish that goal. In fact, calling that type of reasoning PC sounds entirely appropriate.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 10:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 61 (784660)
05-21-2016 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
05-20-2016 10:07 PM


We on the evolution side may believe we were convinced by the facts, but if we'd been born into a different religion or part of the country maybe we'd accept creationism and believe we were convinced by the facts.
And we'd rightly be criticized for holding such beliefs. But I suspect such criticism would not rise to the level of finger pointing and disgust that we might level at a man for defending the right to own another person or his state's right to allow such a thing or the countries obligation to return his slave to him if the slave managed to escape to a free state.
Perhaps the Salem witch trials present a better example? Do you think the principle that 'facts may not have the power to convince' is sufficient reason for us to give those old Massachusetts residents a pass? Is it even necessary for us to do that? None of those folks are even around any more, but maybe in the spirit of forgiveness we should name one of the law school buildings on some Mass. campus the John Hathorne champion for Justice Building.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 05-20-2016 10:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 05-21-2016 2:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 61 (784706)
05-21-2016 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
05-21-2016 2:08 PM


Percy writes:
Who are we to judge the South for having slaves? Today we judge slavery wrong, but at one time we judged raw capitalism wrong because in its worst expressions it made slaves of employees, so laws were passed to make capitalism palatable.
I do make that judgment and I feel justified in doing so based solely on the fact that the slaves were human beings only cosmetically different from their masters and that such condition cannot justify consigning them to the dregs of society. I also point out that enslaving humans is entirely inconsistent with the idea of equality which was supposedly a principle on which their country was based. I have also read the various justifications the South has offered for slavery and I don't find a single one that mitigates my reasons for finding slavery unjust. None of them rises above being a pretext.
In my view, that is sufficient to judge them based on what ought to have been right under the standards of the 1800s as well as by what is just under today's standards.
You can of course make your own judgment or elect not to judge and you are free to feel that no one else can judge. Since you have expressed this as a question, I am not going to assign one position or the other to you. On the other hand, you are free to judge me for the opinion I hold regarding slavery. I don't mind that at all. I am an intolerant person because I won't tolerate the peculiar institution on which Southern wealth and society was largely built. The peculiar institution was vile and evil.
Forgiveness requires assuming a position of moral superiority where it is judged a wrong has been committed
I disagree.
Forgiveness simply requires a judgement that a wrong has been committed based on the forgiving person's standards. It does not require that the person being forgiven acknowledges that he has committed a wrong or that his own moral code which absolves him is inferior. Jesus offered forgiveness to people 'who know not what they do'.
In the case of the North and South, the process of forgiveness included letting the South perpetrate the myth that they were actually right; that the South's cause had not been preserving slavery but a fight against tyranny; that their officer's defections from the union and their attacks on federal property were righteous rather than traitorous. For political reasons it was important to find some way of getting the two halves of the country together and rubbing the South's nose in the dirt was counter productive. The Lost Cause view of the civil war is easily dismissed based on the words and actions of the participants but I can understand the expediency that suggested that we reunify the south even if the Negro suffering was dismissed as a result. But now that need for unifying formerly warring parts of the country no longer exists. The traitors and heroes of the past are gone, and there is little reason to continue to pander to them in the present particularly when we have reached a modern judgment regarding slavery.
Not sure of the point regarding your example. Raw capitalism was judged to be wrong in the past and now we don't have that. Where is the conundrum?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 05-21-2016 2:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 05-22-2016 8:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 61 (784707)
05-21-2016 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
05-21-2016 2:08 PM


Well, yes, but I was thinking more generally, it was just an example of a threat to our record of history, and I quoted Santayana's warning about the dangers of forgetting history. But there's a flip side to war memorials. In the case of the memorial in question a group decided to erect a memorial of that appearance in that location 131 years ago. Does that memorial then remain unchanged and in place in perpetuity? Do the people of today not have a say over what stands on their land?
Apparently not. Those kinds of concerns are pure PC.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 05-21-2016 2:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 61 (784799)
05-23-2016 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Percy
05-22-2016 8:36 AM


Ten this is the primary difference between us. I believe that people should be studied within the context of their time and place in history.
I think you are exaggerating a bit. You can study them within that context if you want. I can do that too. But what those folks believed about themselves does not end what we can or should say about them.
There's that word "judgment" again. When it comes to history, I think qualities like knowledge and insight should have key roles, not judgment.
I don't see any reason not to use all three. You haven't given me any reason other than saying that you do things differently.
What if the abuses of slavery were addressed in the same way so that slavery became just another form of economic opportunity, like the military, apprenticeship, indenturement, employment, college, etc.
I cannot take your proposition seriously. I wonder if you do? I'll address the question once you commit to one side of the question or another. Beyond that I am not sure that the question sheds much light on the current subject. The fact that capitalism has changed does not require or suggest that we ought to view some of the things that happened at the beginning of the industrial revolution kindly or that we cannot condemn them.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 05-22-2016 8:36 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 05-23-2016 10:44 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 61 (784821)
05-23-2016 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Percy
05-23-2016 10:44 PM


That wasn't my point. That capitalism became much more civilized over time urges consideration of how we might feel about slavery had it become similarly much more civilized over time, particularly if we're requiring that conclusions be supported by facts.
I don't think a more civilized version of slavery prevents a judgment of the chattel slavery as it existed in the South even if we are requiring conclusions to be supported by facts. If worker-employer relation ships are civilized now, that does not mean that they were correct in the past. Just what 'facts' are you using to justify your conclusion.
The opinions accepted by the average person are largely a product of forces far outside themselves and are not a measure of any inherent qualities of good or evil.
Seriously. Why should I care what the average person thought about slavery in 1861? I don't care how many people thought slavery was a great idea.
What facts make slavery evil? Most people would include things like overwork, beatings, family break ups, and so forth, but none of these things are inherent to slavery.
I'd include a bit more including the need to dehumanize both slave and master in order to make the system work, at least as it was implemented in the South. I'd add stripping away of self determination, removal the ability to plan for children and to provide for their future, the interference in marital relationships, rape, and the denial of fundamental freedom and liberty. Slaves generally had no right to any form of justice. How about the fact that it was applied involuntarily simply based on race. Quite frankly, you've barely started on a list.
Aren't we actually discussing slavery as it existed in the South? Why are you insisting that the debate here is about a judgment of some idealization or civilizing of slavery that did not actually exist. I'm not sure you think is worth saving regarding the institution of slavery, but I'm fairly satisfied with the approach to the issue taken in the 15th amendment which eliminated both slavery and indentured servitude. Nothing particularly modern about that. Strictly a 19th century judgment by peers of those Southern slave owners.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 05-23-2016 10:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 05-24-2016 12:24 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 61 (784827)
05-24-2016 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Percy
05-24-2016 12:24 AM


I also believe that North/South attitudes about slavery formed first, and the search for supposed supporting "facts" came later in a process that included confirmation bias and motivated reasoning.
Again, one of the things you've disagreed with is present day attempts to judge antebellum slavery. I agree that present day judgments should be based on the facts and that they my own opinion is based on facts and not the fantasizing about how it could have been different I've seen in your proposals. You have claimed that I am not using facts and that a factual judgment would not conclude that slavery as practiced by the South was evil. I simply do not understand your reasoning.
In my view what you call preserving history appears to be preserving a falsification of history adopted by Southerns trying to deny that they fought a war to preserve slavery despite having written extensively that slavery was the most important issue in their differences with the North. I understand why those Southerners felt the need to do that and also why their Northern brothers by and large accommodated that need. I don't see that same need to lie today.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 05-24-2016 12:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 05-24-2016 7:54 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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