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Author Topic:   PC Gone Too Far
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 734 (785155)
05-28-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by New Cat's Eye
05-27-2016 1:34 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
Cat Sci writes:
Too, just because a cause was Confederate doesn't mean that it wasn't worthwhile. There was more going on than just slavery.
We don't judge criminals by how much they give to charity. We judge them by their crimes.
Cat Sci writes:
The rank and file of the armies of the South were not dying to preserve the institution of slavery.
The delusion that they thought they were fighting for is irrelevant. The actual result of their actions, if they had been successful, was to perpetuate slavery. If you fire your shotgun out the window knowing full well that some innocent person may suffer, it doesn't matter how lofty your intentions are. It's the crime that counts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2016 1:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2016 11:51 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 152 of 734 (785156)
05-28-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Percy
05-27-2016 2:07 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
Percy writes:
Well, okay, but if you're going to treat those labels as definitely implying motivation, what labels do you propose using when not implying any motivation?
I propose not putting up memorials to groups with questionable motivation. If you don't have something good to say about them, don't say anything at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Percy, posted 05-27-2016 2:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 734 (785157)
05-28-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
05-28-2016 11:46 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
That's terrible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 05-28-2016 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 05-28-2016 11:58 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 154 of 734 (785160)
05-28-2016 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by petrophysics1
05-27-2016 3:53 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
petrophysics1 writes:
The South used, in my opinion, social, economic, and moral justifications for slavery. This should not be forgotten and NOTHING coveys it better than memorials to their position.
Creationists use social, moral, etc. justifications for creationism. Let's put up a memorial to Henry Morris, Duane Gish and Ken Ham.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by petrophysics1, posted 05-27-2016 3:53 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 155 of 734 (785161)
05-28-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by New Cat's Eye
05-28-2016 11:51 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
Cat Sci writes:
That's terrible.
That's a pretty weak rebuttal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2016 11:51 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2016 12:20 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 734 (785166)
05-28-2016 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by ringo
05-28-2016 11:58 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
I believe that you do what you said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 05-28-2016 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 05-28-2016 12:30 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 157 of 734 (785168)
05-28-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by New Cat's Eye
05-28-2016 12:20 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
Cat Sci writes:
I believe that you do what you said.
I said, "We." We as a society, we as a species judge our members by the bad that they do. The good may mitigate the bad but it doesn't eliminate it.
If you robbed a bank, you caused the casualties. If you fought for the South, you tried to perpetuate slavery. It doesn't matter whether or not you robbed the rich to help the poor. It doesn't matter whether you fought for a flag or a piece of ground. It's the real consequences of your actions that count.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2016 12:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 158 of 734 (785180)
05-28-2016 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by NoNukes
05-28-2016 11:31 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NoNukes writes:
It was a Klan project.
It wasn't a Klan project. It was a UDC project, and the UDC was a women's organization. Women weren't even permitted in the Klan. The SMCMA was incoroporated in 1916 to actively manage the project, but it was only in the early 1920s when active work began that it became packed with Klan members. After the 1925 debacle the SMCMA gradually lost power and influence and funds and eventually went bankrupt. I've never denied Klan involvement in the 1920s, but it wasn't a Klan project at that time, and certainly not in the 1950s when the state of Georgia took over. What is probably true is that the Klan never slackened in their support for a Confederate memorial at Stone Mountain, and that they saw such a memorial as supporting the Southern cause, white supremacy and segregation.
Do you know who the Venables were? Even the Wikiepedia articles tell you that the Venables owned the mountain (for a quarry), and donated one face for the project and gave the UDC a timeline for completing the project. The Venables also helped the UDC fundraise. The fundraising group was full of Klansmen many of them selected by the Venable family. According to Wikipedia, the hired sculptor/engineer was also closely associated with the Klan.
We've been over this before, except now you're giving extra emphasis to the owner.
Are you really that seriously ignorant of what was going on in the South during the 1950s?
...
It seems that in order to discuss any issues with you, I have to begin with a fairly detailed discussion of history...apparently don't give a crap anyway... you are not willing to look stuff up.
In my experience people who can support their claims with evidence are eager to do so and don't need to resort to insult, misrepresentation and emotionalism.
Despite that there was great success in promoting the memorial nationally.
I thought Wikipedia said just the opposite.
I was talking about before the Borglum debacle, and Wikipedia wasn't my source. From Granite Stopped Time: The Stone Mountain Memorial and the Representation of White Southern Identity, which I referenced earlier (I'm just going to quote a little, they've disabled cut-n-pasting, the entire account begins on page 25, this excerpt begins on page 28):
quote:
The SMCMA walked a difficult line, however, making arguments to appeal to both Americans' expansive nationalism and the racialized regionalism of the most ardent "Lost Cause" supporters in an effort to raise the funding...Shrewd enough to recognize that the money for the project could not be raised internally, however, the SMCMA from its inception carefully solicited a broad support. Politicians from across the country supported the effort, and in keeping with a national movement to reclaim Confederate military leaders, especially Lee, they praised the planned "colossal" carvings of these great "American men." Even President Warren G. Harding complimented the Borglum design and wished "the people of the South" the aid and cooperation of "Americans everywhere" while stressing the message of reconciliation.
The difference between us is that you accept guilt by association and I don't, you judge people for being a product of their time and place in history and I don't, and you believe one or two issues define a person's character and I don't. Southerners are our fellow citizens, and attempting to impose the view that theirs is an evil heritage deserving scorn instead of pride is not going to work in any long run.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2016 11:31 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2016 9:10 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 734 (785187)
05-28-2016 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Percy
05-28-2016 3:46 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
You made some points here that impressed me. In particular your citing of the The SMCMA. I accept the quote as indication of national interest. However, I submit that your quote reveals that the actual motives of the SMCMA were as I've indicated. Small wonder given that the organization was comprised largely of the UDC, the Klan, and other folks selected by the Venable family. You don't find that to be important in determining exactly what the purpose of the carving is. I certainly to.
The difference between us is that you accept guilt by association and I don't, you judge people for being a product of their time and place in history and I don't, and you believe one or two issues define a person's character and I don't.
The difference between us is that you accept as legitimate only the judgment of racists, white supremacist segregationists regarding who is a heroic thing or person to worthy of celebrating. You've found one reason or another why the opinions of others including abolitionists of the time and the victims of slavery simply don't matter. I find that to be a much stronger statement than your admission.
Southerners are our fellow citizens, and attempting to impose the view that theirs is an evil heritage deserving scorn instead of pride is not going to work in any long run.
Sorry, but my purpose here is not to express an opinion that makes things better between groups by papering over history with what I feel are lies. If anything is PC, surely what you suggest here seems to be exactly that, however noble your purpose might be. Southern heritage is exactly what it is. If some particular folk want to embrace Jefferson Davis, that certainly is not something I've imposed on them.
Beyond that, this is instead a discussion between you and I and we should be free to discuss all of the facts. While I was born in New Bedford Mass, I've lived among Southerners since elementary school. I self identify as a Southerner. Most of us are big enough to understand the South's history without feeling guilty about it. Others of us do have issues with some facts in the Southern past and by and large people who fit in 'have issues' category deny the facts about the causes of the civil war, and distance themselves from slavery. I presume there is some minority that embraces separatism and racism but I certainly don't see any reason to accommodate their feelings.
I don't personally find any reason to rub my brothers' noses in the dirt about the past. None of them are the least bit responsible for any bad stuff that happened in 1860 whatever. On the other hand, that stuff did happen and Jefferson Davis was directly and prominently involved, and he was involved to a degree much greater than the typical Southerner. I'm not required to get along with Jefferson Davis, nor to pretend that he's some kind of legitimate object of worship.
I've never denied Klan involvement in the 1920s, but it wasn't a Klan project at that time,
I find this dispute to be a matter of semantics. The Klan was involved pretty much from the beginning. The Venables, at the time the project was bought out were Klan members and the project was partially finished. James Venable was the Imperial wizard of the Klan up until something like 1985. I stand by my characterization, you are welcome to yours.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Percy, posted 05-28-2016 3:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Percy, posted 05-29-2016 8:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 734 (785197)
05-29-2016 2:56 AM


Irony?
Would just like to point out the irony of the Northerner defending the South's right to have monuments, and the Southerner who wants to deny it on the basis of its perceived social ramifications.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 161 of 734 (785200)
05-29-2016 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by NoNukes
05-28-2016 9:10 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NoNukes writes:
However, I submit that your quote reveals that the actual motives of the SMCMA were as I've indicated. Small wonder given that the organization was comprised largely of the UDC, the Klan, and other folks selected by the Venable family. You don't find that to be important in determining exactly what the purpose of the carving is? I certainly do.
I don't think the memorial had a single exact purpose for all the people working toward its realization. The Klan likely saw the memorial as a glorious symbol of white supremacy, slavery and segregation, the UDC as a memorial honoring war heroes of the formerly great nation of the Confederacy.
The difference between us is that you accept as legitimate only the judgment of racists, white supremacist segregationists regarding who is a heroic thing or person to worthy of celebrating.
Well, I grant that you have declared everyone associated with the project a racist, white supremacist segregationist.
You've found one reason or another why the opinions of others including abolitionists of the time and the victims of slavery simply don't matter.
Of course they matter.
Sorry, but my purpose here is not to express an opinion that makes things better between groups by papering over history with what I feel are lies.
How can a bas-relief lie? You can't control what people think when they gaze upon a memorial. If some think things you believe untrue, the solution is not to stop building memorials.
If anything is PC, surely what you suggest here seems to be exactly that, however noble your purpose might be.
I'm arguing against responding to political pressures from claims of feeling offended. I'm arguing for inclusivity and reconciliation.
While I was born in New Bedford Mass,...
My grandparents lived on Walnut Street.
... I've lived among Southerners since elementary school. I self identify as a Southerner. Most of us are big enough to understand the South's history without feeling guilty about it...I presume there is some minority that embraces separatism and racism but I certainly don't see any reason to accommodate their feelings.
It sounds like you believe your region of the country is no longer dominated by white supremacists and segregationists, and that's encouraging to hear. The national news tends to paint an intolerant picture on other issues, what with Confederate symbols bickering, absurd gerrymandering, and efforts to limit voting, gay marriage and LGBT rights.
On the other hand, that stuff did happen and Jefferson Davis was directly and prominently involved, and he was involved to a degree much greater than the typical Southerner.
But isn't that the wrong argument, at least if we're still talking about memorials? Davis, Lee, Jackson, Longstreet, Forrest, Pickett, etc. - all the top brass and politicians were "involved to a degree much greater than the typical Southerner." The criteria by which you exclude Davis but not all the rest still escapes me.
I find this dispute to be a matter of semantics. The Klan was involved pretty much from the beginning. The Venables, at the time the project was bought out were Klan members and the project was partially finished. James Venable was the Imperial wizard of the Klan up until something like 1985. I stand by my characterization, you are welcome to yours.
Okay. My position is that a cause doesn't become dubious just because people with disreputable motives insist on associating themselves with it. Building memorials to Southern war heroes was the raison d'tre of the UDC.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2016 9:10 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2016 1:23 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 734 (785205)
05-29-2016 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Percy
05-29-2016 8:53 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
My position is that a cause doesn't become dubious just because people with disreputable motives
My position is that a monument to Jefferson Davis is a dubious, Lost Cause, project to begin with. The disreputable motives are confirmation.
Well, I grant that you have declared everyone associated with the project a racist, white supremacist segregationist.
Actually that was your characterization of Southerners [1] in general. That's why I asked you why the Negroes of the time period were not to be considered Southerners. I've pointed to your characterization at least once in response to a similar accusation from you.
But yeah, I do agree that the early UDC and the Klan were replete with segregationists, supremacists and racists. It is also the case that the Georgia state government was dominated by such folks in the 40s and 50s. Is either proposition something that you are denying?
If some think things you believe untrue, the solution is not to stop building memorials.
Did I say anything like that?
If a monument were being proposed today, do you believe that the question of whether the monument accurately reflects history would be an important question to ask? I certainly do. And if the monument did not accurately reflect history and was offensive, then I'd certainly recommend that the state not get involved. Private folks can do what they will with their own property. But if the state later wants to take over a private monument using state money, then I think the questions of legitimacy should be asked again.
ABE:
[1] To be clear, I am referring to Jefferson Davis' contemporaries and not modern day Southeners.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Percy, posted 05-29-2016 8:53 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Percy, posted 05-30-2016 11:17 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 163 of 734 (785216)
05-30-2016 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by NoNukes
05-29-2016 1:23 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NoNukes writes:
My position is that a monument to Jefferson Davis is a dubious, Lost Cause, project to begin with. The disreputable motives are confirmation.
People with disreputable motives can associate themselves with any cause. If all it took to kill any project was for people with disreputable motives to join then we'd be ceding them a great deal of power. This is the guilt by association fallacy. When trying to accomplish things it isn't uncommon to discover that people you don't like have similar goals - that doesn't invalidate the goals. One cannot reason, "I have honest motives for wanting to do this, but people with dishonest motives also want to do this, therefore I won't do this."
Actually that was your characterization of Southerners [1] in general. That's why I asked you why the Negroes of the time period were not to be considered Southerners.
That was a serious question? No, of course in the context of a discussion about Southern white supremacist slavers the term "Southerners" does not include blacks.
But yeah, I do agree that the early UDC and the Klan were replete with segregationists, supremacists and racists.
We only agree about the Klan and the SMCMA after its ranks were filled with Klan members, not the UDC.
It is also the case that the Georgia state government was dominated by such folks in the 40s and 50s.
This is the same false reasoning: "Bad people want to do this, therefore this must be bad." The thing must be judged good or bad on its own merits, or lack thereof.
If a monument were being proposed today, do you believe that the question of whether the monument accurately reflects history would be an important question to ask?
How does the Stone Mountain Memorial not accurately reflect history?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2016 1:23 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2016 1:37 PM Percy has replied
 Message 191 by NoNukes, posted 06-03-2016 12:48 AM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 734 (785219)
05-30-2016 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Percy
05-30-2016 11:17 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
That was a serious question? No, of course in the context of a discussion about Southern white supremacist slavers the term "Southerners" does not include blacks.
I think the exclusion is important and note worthy. One of your points has been that those folks should be judged based on contemporary standards and not based on my current view of slavery. I'm suggesting that there were plenty of contemporaries both in the South and out of the South who would have felt similarly and perhaps even more strongly about Jefferson Davis than the opinion I've expressed here. But according to you, only a subset of the contemporary opinions counts. I don't accept that.
Regardless of what you or Petro express about Southern moral etc. justification for slavery, the institution as practiced in the US ranks among the most reprehensible vile things one group of humans has ever done to another. Perhaps not the majority, but a substantial number of nineteenth century folks knew that; many of them from first hand experience. So I am not just applying a modern standard to 19th century folk.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Percy, posted 05-30-2016 11:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 05-30-2016 6:42 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 165 of 734 (785223)
05-30-2016 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by NoNukes
05-30-2016 1:37 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NoNukes writes:
One of your points has been that those folks should be judged based on contemporary standards and not based on my current view of slavery.
What I've actually said has been a little different, that people should be judged in the context of their time and place in history.
I'm suggesting that there were plenty of contemporaries both in the South and out of the South who would have felt similarly and perhaps even more strongly about Jefferson Davis than the opinion I've expressed here.
When you introduced this part of the discussion you included a footnote that said you were "referring to Jefferson Davis' contemporaries," and my reply took that into account. So is your reply to me still in the context of Jefferson Davis' contemporaries, and you're saying that people in and out of the South held Davis in lower esteem while he was alive than you do today? Or are you saying something else?
But according to you, only a subset of the contemporary opinions counts.
If you mean opinion contemporaneous with Jefferson Davis, I don't recall ever commenting on opinion of Jefferson Davis while he was alive. And if you mean something else then I don't know what that is.
Regardless of what you or Petro express about Southern moral etc. justification for slavery, the institution as practiced in the US ranks among the most reprehensible vile things one group of humans has ever done to another. Perhaps not the majority, but a substantial number of nineteenth century folks knew that; many of them from first hand experience. So I am not just applying a modern standard to 19th century folk.
You're applying standards that existed in their time, but not their place.
I understand your argument that the people of the antebellum South were evil because they should have known better, but that's not how people work, it's not human nature. People adopt the mores and attitudes of everyone around them. It's self reinforcing. What surrounds them is natural, the way of the world. Had you been born in the antebellum South the odds strongly favor that you would have been, in your own words, a white supremacist slaver.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by NoNukes, posted 05-30-2016 1:37 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2016 12:39 AM Percy has replied
 Message 168 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2016 2:48 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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