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Author Topic:   PC Gone Too Far
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 734 (785301)
06-02-2016 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by bluegenes
06-02-2016 6:19 AM


Re: The Washington Monument
You don't have to agree with the ideology of the people represented in monuments or the ideology of those who erected them in order to protect the monuments themselves.
I don't have a problem with anyone's opinion about keeping the monuments or moving them. I do have a problem with the idea that only one side in such arguments has any legitimacy. There is quite a bit of separation between the cases of Washington and Jefferson Davis or even Thomas Jefferson and Davis.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by bluegenes, posted 06-02-2016 6:19 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by bluegenes, posted 06-02-2016 7:09 AM NoNukes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 182 of 734 (785302)
06-02-2016 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by NoNukes
06-02-2016 6:50 AM


Re: The Washington Monument
NoNukes writes:
I don't have a problem with anyone's opinion about keeping the monuments or moving them. I do have a problem with the idea that only one side in such arguments has any legitimacy. There is quite a bit of separation between the cases of Washington and Jefferson Davis or even Thomas Jefferson and Davis.
Would you want to remove all 19th century statues of Jefferson Davis?
Edited by Admin, : Correct spelling: "Davies" => "Davis"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2016 6:50 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2016 11:02 AM bluegenes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 183 of 734 (785309)
06-02-2016 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by NoNukes
06-01-2016 11:37 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NoNukes writes:
Right. You've also stated that only white supremacists slavers are folks in Davis time and place.
Wrong again. I've never said anything like that.
You've indicated that even the abolitionists and slaves of their time period were not in the same time and place.
Wrong yet again. No one would ever say something as illogical as that.
You've left nothing but judging them the way their slaving and/or sympathizing peers would judge them.
No, this is wrong, too. I've said that analysis cannot ignore the historical context of time and place, not that we should "judge them on their own standards," as you once put it.
So what your position adds up to is exactly what I said despite you not using those words and perhaps not even using that same reasoning. But the results are indistinguishable from my description. You've simply cloaked what you are doing in language like 'judging in their time and place' and ruling out everyone who felt differently on one pretext or another.
Wrong.
I don't know what to tell you. You've quoted my words and right beneath them written woefully wrong interpretations, one of them even violating simple logic. You're arguing with a chimera of your own making while ignoring what the passages you're quoting really say, and ignoring other important arguments, such as the worthlessness of assessments of "evil" and the importance of examining why Southerners felt it so important to defend slavery.
The South wasn't homogenous, but there was a by far dominant view, and it formed the context of everyday life for people who grew up there and earned livings to provide food and shelter. They weren't evil, they were just people like everyone else.
After as many times as I've stated what I really mean I can't think what to say now that would cause thoughts to spring into your head that actually capture what I'm really saying. Perhaps the feelings of repugnance that seem to overcome you when considering the topic of slavery are clouding your judgment. Perhaps you're so attracted by the ease with which the arguments you've made up for me can be rebutted that understanding my actual meaning is no longer possible for you. This has happened in other threads where we've had discussions - you decide upon my meaning and cannot be turned aside from it, and that's what we end up arguing about instead of the actual topic.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 06-01-2016 11:37 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2016 1:18 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 734 (785320)
06-02-2016 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by bluegenes
06-02-2016 7:09 AM


Re: The Washington Monument
Would you want to remove all 19th century statues of Jefferson Davis?
I don't want to remove the carving from Stone Mountain. I am suggesting that people who do want them moved (and not just removed) may have a legitimate complaint worth considering.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by bluegenes, posted 06-02-2016 7:09 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by bluegenes, posted 06-06-2016 6:25 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 185 of 734 (785321)
06-02-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by bluegenes
06-02-2016 5:04 AM


Re: The Washington Monument
bluegenes writes:
Perhaps we should start a thread on whether or not the Washington Monument should be taken down and stored in a museum with a huge 500' long shed.
I don't think anybody is suggesting that every questionable monument should be taken down. The point is that if somebody decides to take down or move a monument, for whatever reason, that decision doesn't have to be seen as an affront to history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by bluegenes, posted 06-02-2016 5:04 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by bluegenes, posted 06-06-2016 7:05 AM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 734 (785325)
06-02-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Percy
06-02-2016 8:26 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
I don't know what to tell you. You've quoted my words and right beneath them wrote woefully wrong interpretations, one of them even violating simple logic.
I respectfully disagree. I'll provide a couple more quotes from our discussion;
NN writes:
Regardless of what you or Petro express about Southern moral etc. justification for slavery, the institution as practiced in the US ranks among the most reprehensible vile things one group of humans has ever done to another. Perhaps not the majority, but a substantial number of nineteenth century folks knew that; many of them from first hand experience. So I am not just applying a modern standard to 19th century folk.
Percy writes:
You're applying standards that existed in their time, but not their place.
Hmm, so it looks like I got the time element right, but not the place? What might Percy mean here regarding place?
NN writes:
What else would I be discussing in response to an opinion about judging Davis in context. I personally do take Davis in context. I just don't adopt the mindset of a slave owner or a white supremacists when I do that.
Emphasis added here by me:
Then you're not judging Davis in context, or even understanding what studying people in context means. It doesn't mean adopting their mindset, though that can be part of it. It means informing your opinions with the historical context of the time and place. Davis's context was not non-slave owners and non-white supremacists. Even when in Washington he had the support of the entire Southern delegation. No one in the North was able to shame the Southern statesmen into silence. For every argument the Northerners made, perhaps some like the hyperbolic ones you've been making about the South, there were effective Southern responses.
Yeah, that's right. The correct context for judging Davis is not non-slave owners and white supremacists. And according to you the Southern Justification for slavery is greater than Northern rebuttal based on not getting shouted down in some debate. Of course the South had justifications, but even you believe that the justifications were formed after the fact. In short, they were pretextual, and to some degree consisted of complaining about a lumpy bed after making the bed yourself.
If in fact, the South created an economy on which slavery was a required element for their way of life, of course they would demand that it would continue, but the blame for their situation is their own. They created the entire situation and even entangled the Northerners in it to a large degree. It is certainly the case that the North was economically dependent on slave produced goods. Yet the North (for the most part) managed eventually to do the right thing anyway.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Percy, posted 06-02-2016 8:26 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 06-02-2016 1:37 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 188 by xongsmith, posted 06-02-2016 1:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 187 of 734 (785326)
06-02-2016 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by NoNukes
06-02-2016 1:18 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
And according to you the Southern Justification for slavery is greater than Northern rebuttal based on not getting shouted down in some debate.
Wrong again.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore about what I mean. I think purposeful misinterpretation of what people say followed by distracting the debate into arguments about what they meant may just be your habit, the thing you do, the method by which you ignore arguments actually made.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2016 1:18 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2016 2:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 188 of 734 (785328)
06-02-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by NoNukes
06-02-2016 1:18 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
NN, arguing with Percy, writes:
Yeah, that's right. The correct context for judging Davis is not non-slave owners and {non-}white supremacists. And according to you the Southern Justification for slavery is greater than Northern rebuttal based on not getting shouted down in some debate. Of course the South had justifications, but even you believe that the justifications were formed after the fact. In short, they were pretextual, and to some degree consisted of complaining about a lumpy bed after making the bed yourself.
Somehow I don't think Percy was talking about justification, per se. If I read it him right, it was about understanding the time and context of the predominant culture as a better way to see the history. If you were a poor white growing up in the south, you were likely to have absorbed the racist views of your family & peers and lived your life accordingly. That doesn't justify it, but it can throw light on it. It helps to understand why things happened the way they did. We want to preserve what we can of each of these times & contexts so that we have a better historical record.
More information is good, isn't it?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2016 1:18 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by NoNukes, posted 06-02-2016 3:46 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 734 (785330)
06-02-2016 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Percy
06-02-2016 1:37 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
If there is some important distance between these two statements, I doubt you could slide a paying card into the gap.
NN writes:
and according to you the Southern Justification for slavery is greater than Northern rebuttal based on not getting shouted down in some debate.
Percy writes:
Even when in Washington he had the support of the entire Southern delegation. No one in the North was able to shame the Southern statesmen into silence.
What is clear is that there are various contemporary opinions about slavery in the South, and little objective reason to latch onto the South's own conclusions.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 06-02-2016 1:37 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 734 (785332)
06-02-2016 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by xongsmith
06-02-2016 1:49 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
If I read it him right, it was about understanding the time and context of the predominant culture as a better way to see the history. That doesn't justify it, but it can throw light on it.
I completely agree. I don't think Percy and I ever got into debating the justifications, but I certainly agreed that the South gave reasons that they felt strongly about.
I think Percy goes beyond that point. It is certainly possible that I've misread some of his statements. He has certainly made that claim. I am completely comfortable with what you have expressed here. I'll wait to see if Percy confirms your understanding.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by xongsmith, posted 06-02-2016 1:49 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 734 (785344)
06-03-2016 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Percy
05-30-2016 11:17 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
But yeah, I do agree that the early UDC and the Klan were replete with segregationists, supremacists and racists.
We only agree about the Klan and the SMCMA after its ranks were filled with Klan members, not the UDC.
It is demonstrable that the early UDC were supremacists, segregationists and racists. They were also often supporters of the Klan. The same could be said for the early SCV but that group was not relevant to this discussion. Current versions of the UDC are very vocal about perserving Southern Heritage. That was also a goal of the early UDC, but the early groups went about their goal by promoting a distorted version of history in which negroes were content as slaves, and in which defense of slavery had nothing to do with the civil war.
"United Daughters of the Confederacy"
United Daughters of the Confederacy - New Georgia Encyclopedia
quote:
1915 Caroline Helen Jemison Plane, the president of the UDC Atlanta chapter, began the project that would culminate in the Confederate memorial carving on Stone Mountain. As leader of the Stone Mountain Memorial Association (incorporated in 1916 as the Stone Mountain Confederate Monumental Association), she solicited the support of the sculptor Gutzon Borglum and convinced the owners of the mountain to give the UDC access to the property. In addition to the carving of Confederate heroes, Plane wanted Ku Klux Klan members to appear in the design.
Link to book praising the clan endorsed by both the early UDC and SCV, the book written by an early UDC historian.
THE KU KLUX KLAN OR INVISIBLE EMPIRE BY Mrs. S. E. F. Rose
The Ku Klux Klan: Or Invisible Empire - Laura Martin Rose - Google Books
"Spaces of Hate: Geographies of Discrimination and Intolerance in the U.S.A."
Spaces of Hate: Geographies of Discrimination and Intolerance in the U.S.A. - Google Books
Principally about the DAR, but including a discussion of the relationship between the Klan and UDC during the early work on the Stone Mountain carving. Again confirms that Plane wanted to add Reconstruction-era Klansmen to the original design.
I'm sure there was some separation between the UDC and the Klan at times, but I think the idea that the early UDC were not supremacists isn't correct, and is demonstrated in these references. In fact, given the prevalance of the supremacists beliefs in the deep South, it would be very surprising if those organizations did not mirror their surroundings.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Percy, posted 05-30-2016 11:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Percy, posted 06-03-2016 4:38 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 192 of 734 (785371)
06-03-2016 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by NoNukes
06-03-2016 12:48 AM


Re: Tone of the memorial
But yeah, I do agree that the early UDC and the Klan were replete with segregationists, supremacists and racists.
We only agree about the Klan and the SMCMA after its ranks were filled with Klan members, not the UDC.
It is demonstrable that the early UDC were supremacists, segregationists and racists.
...
In fact, given the prevalence of the supremacists beliefs in the deep South, it would be very surprising if those organizations did not mirror their surroundings.
Yes, of course, your last sentence precisely sums up what I've been saying about the context of time and place, but only if you define "white supremacist" as a white person who believes blacks inferior to whites, which characterizes much of the nation throughout much of its history, including the North. But white supremacy in the context of the Klan takes on a much different color involving intimidation, violence and even murder. By which degree of white supremacy are you equating them, the generally common one or the Klan's?
Yes, Helen Plane, president of the Atlanta chapter, apparently admired the KKK (the first one from the 19th century, not the second one reincarnated at Stone Mountain in 1915). That has to be balanced against the fact that Klan involvement was viewed as a negative both nationally and locally, and that both the UDC and the SMCMA often found it necessary to distance themselves from the Klan. This second version of the Klan didn't even flourish that long, declining precipitously by 1930.
But coloring the monument with a Klan tint is still just the fallacy of guilt by association. Someone admired doesn't suddenly become taboo just because someone villainous also admires them.
Davis, Lee and Jackson are legitimate war heroes of the South, your eagerness to cast aspersions all around notwithstanding. Your failure to convince me otherwise is not because you haven't used the terms "white supremacists," "segregationists", "racists", "evil", "reprehensible" and "vile" often enough. It's because that's all you have to offer, and because the only points you find worth rebutting are ones you make up yourself.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by NoNukes, posted 06-03-2016 12:48 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by NoNukes, posted 06-03-2016 10:46 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 734 (785386)
06-03-2016 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Percy
06-03-2016 4:38 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
Davis, Lee and Jackson are legitimate war heroes of the South
Davis, Lee, and Jackson are viewed as heroes by some portion of Southerners, but that is not the last word on whether or not those folk are heroic. Davis, in particular, has little to recommend himself as hero other than as a reminder of the most reprehensible portions of antebellum history.
That is my point, and examples of exactly which folk actually did revere this fellow are legitimate issues to point out in making that point.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Percy, posted 06-03-2016 4:38 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 06-03-2016 11:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 194 of 734 (785388)
06-03-2016 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by NoNukes
06-03-2016 10:46 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
Davis, Lee, and Jackson are viewed as heroes by some portion of Southerners, but that is not the last word on whether or not those folk are heroic.
When I said that Davis, Lee and Jackson were war heroes of the South I did not mean "by some portion of Southerners." I meant that they were war heroes of the army of the South, as opposed to the army of the North. Southerners fought just as heroically as Northerners.
Davis, in particular, has little to recommend himself as hero other than as a reminder of the most reprehensible portions of antebellum history.
You keep saying this but never supporting it. Was not his white supremacy typical not only of the South but even of much of the nation? The main difference between Davis and the other two was that Davis served politically rather than militarily (though a military role was his preference) during the Civil War, though we do have memorials to the political leader of the North, even one in Richmond, the South's capitol.
That is my point, and examples of exactly which folk actually did revere this fellow are legitimate issues to point out in making that point.
Repeating your point again is not rebuttal. This is still the fallacy of guilt by association. Besides, the modern memorial has no connection to the Klan of the 1920's. We've both agreed that a key triggering factor of the modern memorial was racial desegregation.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by NoNukes, posted 06-03-2016 10:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by NoNukes, posted 06-04-2016 1:23 AM Percy has replied
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 06-04-2016 11:42 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 734 (785394)
06-04-2016 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Percy
06-03-2016 11:46 PM


Re: Tone of the memorial
When I said that Davis, Lee and Jackson were war heroes of the South
So was Nathan Bedford Forrest. Again, the view of some southerners is not the last word on whether those folks were heroic or on whether their statutes might be better moved to a museum rather than in a central place on a college campus, or whether what these folks are celebrated for is reprehensible.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 06-03-2016 11:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 06-04-2016 9:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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