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Author Topic:   Molecular Population Genetics and Diversity through Mutation
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 455 (785728)
06-09-2016 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by NoNukes
06-09-2016 1:21 PM


Re: Situation
That would be right, except that there is no evidence of your "isolation effect" producing anything other than cosmetic changes already possible in the original population. Here you've admitted that there is at least some evidence supporting natural selection. But there is none for what you propose.
Pod Mrcaru lizards, Great Danes.
"Cosmetic" changes are the only kind there are.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2016 1:21 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2016 3:59 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 455 (785731)
06-09-2016 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
06-09-2016 1:30 PM


Re: Situation
Great Danes
Please describe the breeding history of Great Danes so that we can confirm that it was created by simply isolating some wolf like animals without applying any forced selection. Surely you would not cite them as evidence without such information?
Pod Mrcaru lizards
And how have you ruled out natural selection in the case of the lizards?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 06-09-2016 1:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-09-2016 7:27 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 455 (785738)
06-09-2016 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by NoNukes
06-09-2016 3:59 PM


Re: Situation
Well, they're both populations that began with small numbers and continued in reproductive isolation. There may have been other factors but those are certain and primary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2016 3:59 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-09-2016 8:12 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 260 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2016 8:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 259 of 455 (785743)
06-09-2016 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-09-2016 7:27 PM


Re: Situation
Well, they're both populations that began with small numbers and continued in reproductive isolation. There may have been other factors but those are certain and primary.
But the resulting populations are not merely subsets of the parent populations. So something else must have been "primary".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-09-2016 7:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 455 (785745)
06-09-2016 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-09-2016 7:27 PM


Re: Situation
here may have been other factors but those are certain and primary.
You call isolation alone primary based on what? Again how do you rule out the effects of natural selection as merely secondary? How do you conclude that Great Danes support your proposition while knowing diddly squat about their breeding history?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-09-2016 7:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 1:58 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 261 of 455 (785751)
06-10-2016 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by NoNukes
06-09-2016 1:21 PM


Re: Situation
Dog breeding involves strong selection rather than mere isolation, and in fact, generally involves selecting and removing offspring that do not fit the desired breed. That requirement for strong selection having nothing to do with fitness is the reason why breeds don't appear in the wild. Originally all dogs looks like domesticated wolves. Despite the fact that dogs and man have lived together for countless thousands (hundreds of thousand actually) of years, most modern breeds are less than 100 years old. Pretty strong evidence that your nonsense does not work.
WHAT? That makes no sense. Actually if you read up on breeds you find that a great many have an "ancient" history that can't be traced. Most modern breeds were developed from existing breeds. What does the 100 years have to do with anything? That's time for many generations of selection, that amounts to a series of population splits. And the only "nonsense" here is yours since you really don't have a clue what I'm talking about and just go on blathering as if you did.
SELECTION is the REASON FOR THE reduced genetic diversity. It doesn't matter what the reason for the selection is, whether it's for adaptation or to meet human standards or just random. It all forms a population of reduced numbers with new gene frequencies. You seem to be implying something else but what that might be is beyond me. Selection is the reason for the small founding numbers and the fact that breeding programs keep the numbers low, often mating within family lines to keep up the appearance of the breed.
Yet here you argue that natural selection is no factor and only selection produces change.
Natural selection would have the same effect I'm talking about in producing an isolated population so it's not part of my argument, it's just that I think it's not the big factor always claimed for it. I think it's not so often the animal that changes to fit the environment but that the animal changes due to random genetic changes, and then finds the elements in the environment that fit its changes.
That's more evidence for the TOE, so where is your evidence against natural selection? Heck we can observe natural selection directly.
No, you can observe adaptations directly, not natural selection except in some rare cases like the peppered moths and the pocket mice.
I understand the need to have evidence against the theory of evolution, and also the need to find evidence supporting your own view. You've explained your opinion that Darwinism displaces God. But that's only for folks that buy into YEC style creationism.
No, and it isn't part of my argument so don't do your usual trick of making something I said mean something I didn't mean by it. It's a historical fact that Darwinism found an explanation for life that excluded God, it's not an artifact of YEC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2016 1:21 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 06-10-2016 3:48 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 455 (785752)
06-10-2016 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by NoNukes
06-09-2016 8:20 PM


Re: Situation
You call isolation alone primary based on what?
I did not call isolation "alone" the primary thing, but the fact they were populations that began with small numbers. We know that about the lizards. It's the starting from small numbers that causes the new gene frequencies that are the basis for the changes in the population, which when recombined down the generations in isolation are the reason for the new phenotype.
Again how do you rule out the effects of natural selection as merely secondary?
There is no way to rule out natural selection for the lizard population because nobody knows their history on the island; for the same reason there is no way to rule it IN either, although just because it's an article of the Evo Faith it is considered to be one of the factors. There is no need for it, their own gene frequencies alone would make the changes.
How do you conclude that Great Danes support your proposition while knowing diddly squat about their breeding history?
I just didn't mention their history. They are considered to be an "ancient" breed whose history is not known for sure although it is thought they were originally a cross between a wolfhound and the English mastiff. That would make their genetic diversity higher than either of those breeds. They have many of the genetic disorders common to highly bred dogs, however, such as hip dysplasia. But you're right, because they are a cross they aren't the best choice to illustrate my argument. But reality is messy and there may not be a perfect choice. There are certainly plenty of purebred dogs with all the signs of genetic reduction even if their history isn't a perfect reflection of the pattern I describe. They ARE based on small numbers in reproductive isolation, that's what a breed IS, and especially since standards were set in the 19th century to define the perfect or most desired physical characteristics of each breed. This led to mating strategies to emphasize those characteristics that certainly reduced genetic diversity and brought about many genetic diseases.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2016 8:20 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by NoNukes, posted 06-10-2016 3:30 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 269 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2016 10:05 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 263 of 455 (785755)
06-10-2016 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
06-10-2016 1:58 AM


Re: Situation
did not call isolation "alone" the primary thing, but the fact they were populations that began with small numbers.
A distinction with little difference. Even with a population beginning with small numbers the questions of selection pressure and mutation are still issues. You are trying to demonstrate that those factors do not play roles, and you have yet to do so.
There is no way to rule out natural selection for the lizard population because nobody knows their history on the island; for the same reason there is no way to rule it IN either,
Yes, there are reasons to raise the question of natural selection because some of the new traits do make the lizards more fit for their environment. But more importantly, if you are going to claim that these lizards of examples, you are obliged to rule out other factors.
They are considered to be an "ancient" breed whose history is not known for sure although it is thought they were originally a cross between a wolfhound and the English mastiff.
In other words, you really don't have any details to discuss. You cannot rule out breeding selection by humans or mutations, or even natural selection.
But you're right, because they are a cross they aren't the best choice to illustrate my argument.
Not because they are a cross, but because you know diddly squat about how the breed arose. Obviously you cannot mate more than two dogs to make any one litter, but beyond that you have no idea how many dogs were used, or how often dogs were removed or added to the gene pool.
Again, nobody breeds animals by simply putting small numbers of them in a pen and then letting them chose their own mates. Every parent is carefully chosen with traits in breeding pairs chosen to give targeted qualities. I demonstrated and example by pointing to how the Golden Retrievers breed was established. How convincing is the Great Dane story in comparison?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 1:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 455 (785757)
06-10-2016 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
06-10-2016 1:45 AM


Re: Situation
SELECTION is the REASON FOR THE reduced genetic diversity.
Selection of the type breeders engage in, whereby any diversity that appears and is undesirable is removed. However natural selection does not necessarily remove all new traits. Instead it chooses between those which affect survival (fitness). Traits that do not affect fitness are able to drift through the population.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 1:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 8:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 455 (785762)
06-10-2016 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by NoNukes
06-10-2016 3:48 AM


Re: Situation
Instead it chooses between those which affect survival (fitness). Traits that do not affect fitness are able to drift through the population.
Depends on the severity of the selection, and in any case they will be decreased as the fitter are selected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 06-10-2016 3:48 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 06-10-2016 9:04 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 267 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2016 9:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 274 by NoNukes, posted 06-10-2016 1:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 266 of 455 (785763)
06-10-2016 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
06-10-2016 8:37 AM


Re: Situation
Remember the only definition of "fitter" in reality is to live long enough to reproduce.
Natural selection has no goal at all. That is why Artificial Selection as is done in AKC Dog Breeds is far different that anything that happens in the natural world.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key.
Edited by jar, : AKC not AKA

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 8:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 267 of 455 (785764)
06-10-2016 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
06-10-2016 8:37 AM


Re: Situation
i've totally lost the plot on this - it's going round in circles.
Whether isolation will reduce gentic diversity is dependent on all sorts of things, including chance but you could safely say that if a million bison split into two equal groups there would be no loss, whilst if a dozen did then there would be a bottleneck. And all points in between.
Selection pressure acting on a group would also vary from zilch if the environment was exactly the same in both location to heavy if not.
In situations of severe bottleneck and heavy selection pressure, the group would almost certainly go extinct.
Selection pressure would act on groups that survive to modify their phenotypes.
Modification can happen a number of ways, the most obvious are the selection of one existing trait over another - such a colouration or size due to predation or food availability. Or it can be through mutation followed by selection. And a combination.
Two seperated groups could also diverge over time simply by genetic drift.
Where's the argument? all these things are known and have been for some time.
As far as I can see no-one is arguing that some evolutionary mechanisms - such as isolation of a sub group - will cause a loss of diversity, that's what a bottleneck is. So if the only issue is whether diversity can return in those cases there's also no issue. It either will through mutation and the natural growth of the population over time, or it won't in which case we'd see weakened species (which we occasionally do) or we see extinction (which we see a huge amount of.)
Not surprisingly, the majority of existing species are quite genetically diverse because those that couldn't adapt are dead.
What's the problem? If you're still in denial about genetic mutation, that's just too bad, it's literally a fact of life that can't be denied.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 8:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 455 (785766)
06-10-2016 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Tangle
06-10-2016 9:29 AM


Re: Situation
I just heard a talk about how Islam is going to run Europe and the UK within a decade and how all your leaders keep denying it, same as most of you all here. This reminds me of that. Wishfulness reigns. Couldn't resist the comparison.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2016 9:29 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2016 11:37 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 273 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2016 12:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 269 of 455 (785767)
06-10-2016 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
06-10-2016 1:58 AM


Re: Situation
It's the starting from small numbers that causes the new gene frequencies that are the basis for the changes in the population ...
But isolation can't make something out of nothing. It's true that if only people with blue eyes were marooned on an island, that would give you a population of blue-eyed people. And it's also true in principle that if only wolves that are Great Danes were marooned on an island, that would give you a population of Great Danes. But there aren't any wolves that are Great Danes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 1:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 06-10-2016 10:13 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 455 (785768)
06-10-2016 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Dr Adequate
06-10-2016 10:05 AM


Re: Situation
Thank you for that totally illogical and meaningless point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2016 10:05 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2016 10:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
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