Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Molecular Population Genetics and Diversity through Mutation
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 3 of 455 (784817)
05-23-2016 9:32 PM


Genetic corruption/reduction
From reading (sometimes between the lines) it seems that the whole idea of reduction of genetic diversity comes from the religious idea of "the fall."
It is believed by some that Adam originally had perfect DNA, and sin (original sin) introduced corruption, reduction, or some such defects. As a result succeeding generations had less perfect DNA. This seems to be at least a part of what Faith is relying on for her posts about reduced genetic diversity.
That this is believed to have been going on only for some 6,000 years explains why that continual reduction has not resulted in the extinction of mankind.
I think this also explains Faith's reluctance to accept increased diversity through mutations, particularly beneficial mutations.
Given all of this, I fearlessly predict that your efforts to include numerical analyses and rational explanations will fail, as you are using evidence and logic to try and change a religious belief.
We'll see if, after a few hundred posts, this fearless prediction comes to pass...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 72 of 455 (785109)
05-28-2016 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
05-27-2016 2:16 PM


A challenge for Faith...
Give up on the radiometric dating and it's all guesswork.
Oetzi has been dated by radiocarbon to between 3350 and 3100 BC.
You say "I don't believe Oetzi is that old" and that it is all guesswork?
May I suggest that 1) you don't know anything useful about radiocarbon dating, and that 2) you are basing everything on a religious belief, but that 3) you have to try to invoke science to convince yourself and others that your religious beliefs are accurate.
So, if you disagree lets hear the technical details about why radiocarbon dating is "guesswork." (But be careful--those creationist sites will lie to you.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 05-27-2016 2:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 109 of 455 (785284)
06-02-2016 1:32 AM


On Adam and Eve and "the fall"
Since Adam and Eve were mentioned, and the nonsense of "original sin" and "the fall" were implied, some thoughts:
A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man’s nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.
Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a tendency to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.
What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledgehe acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evilhe became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his laborhe became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desirehe acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joyall the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he wasthat robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without lovehe was not man.
Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.
Ayn Rand
—Ayn Rand Lexicon
Adam and Eve are fictional characters, and the implications of various claims as to genetic depletion are also fictional.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 06-02-2016 5:51 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 384 of 455 (786070)
06-15-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
06-15-2016 11:54 AM


Re: Epistemological digression
quote:
Prophecies have been fulfilled many times according to the Bible but you still have to believe the prophets are being honest and if you refuse to believe that you'll never see the fulfilled prophecies. There are "theologians" who refuse to believe that prophecy is possible so they reinterpret the prophecies to be lies by the prophets invented after the events they prophesied. Sure, that way you'll never see a fulfilled prophecy.
It does not pay a prophet to be too specific.
L. Sprague de Camp

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 06-15-2016 11:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Faith, posted 06-15-2016 12:37 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 398 of 455 (786452)
06-21-2016 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Faith
06-21-2016 6:27 PM


Scientific terms (again)
it's ALL theory, ALL assumption...
In science, if not in creation "science," theory and assumption are two different things entirely. The fact that you use them interchangeably does not make it so.
Here are some definitions, for about the 10th time:
Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.
Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]
When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.
Assumption: premise: a statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn; "on the assumption that he has been injured we can infer that he will not be able to play"
If you misuse scientific terms you only engender confusion, and derision.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 6:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024