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Author | Topic: The Great Creationist Fossil Failure | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Just about any university library. Public universities would be better, since a Bible college would be likely to censor such information.
Here's a account by Merle Hertzler, one of the first and only honest creationists I have encountered in three decades. While every other creationist on CompuServe in the late 1980's just regurgitated the creationist crap they had fed on and resorted to highly dishonest actions to avoid discussing their own claims (obviously because they did not understand them themselves), Merle was the shining exception. He engaged in discussion to the best of his ability. And, unlike the transparent lies of his creationist brethren, when he said that he would research something, he did research it. Honest creationists are rare and do not last long. Within a year, he had learned that YEC was false and found himself on the other side. He tells that story at Did We Evolve? in which a visit to the university library and the research there opened his eyes:
quote: That is but a small part of that page and an even smaller part of his site. The information is all there in the university libraries. All state universities are required to comply with ADA requirements. Or you could hire a "service monkey", a student, preferably majoring in paleontology or geology, to go do the researching for you. It is all there in the libraries. Nothing is being kept secret. You just need to look.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I have looked many times for clear information about where all the various fossils are located, also how many of what kind are exactly where, and found the information unavailable or so scanty and scattered as to be useless to me. If you have a good source kindly pass it on. Well, I gave a link for the information about the Cretaceous fauna. For the rest, you know, you can just look up terror birds or giant ground sloths or whatever on Wikipedia and see that yes, they are found in South America, and giraffids in Africa, and so on.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Sounds logical I guess, but I doubt it, or at least it would be hard to calculate such a thing. But easy to falsify it, as I did in my O.P.
Think of the nautiloid layer in the Redwall Limestone in the Grand Canyon -- millions of nautiloids encased in limestone, which by all the measurements Steve Austin did were all washed there in moving water. How did he measure the motion of the water? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Are you talking about online sources? I'm physically unable to go to outside sources. But why shouldn't anyone at EvC who has a good source be unwilling to pass on the information?
An honest Christian Creationist knows the Bible is God's own inspired word. Nothing can change that. What CAN change is the various theories we come up with to reconcile geological and biological facts with the Biblical revelation. It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer. It may never be possible to answer all the questions, of course, and some hypotheses will have to be modified or given up, but there are plenty that have been answered, and the only hitch is that evothink is so entrenched most of our opponents can't even understand the answers, and can't see the absurdities of their own theories. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
How did he measure the motion of the water?
Mostly by the orientation of each nautiloid, which he plotted on a graph.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
An honest Christian Creationist knows the Bible is God's own inspired word. Nothing can change that. What CAN change is the various theories we come up with to reconcile geological and biological facts with the Biblical revelation. It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer. It may never be possible to answer all the questions, of course, and some hypotheses will have to be modified or given up, but there are plenty that have been answered, and the only hitch is that evothink is so entrenched most of our opponents can't even understand the answers, and can't see the absurdities of their own theories. An honest Christian flat-Earther knows the Bible is God's own inspired word. Nothing can change that. What CAN change is the various theories we come up with to reconcile geological and geographical facts with the Biblical revelation. It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer. It may never be possible to answer all the questions, of course, and some hypotheses will have to be modified or given up, but there are plenty that have been answered, and the only hitch is that spherothink is so entrenched most of our opponents can't even understand the answers, and can't see the absurdities of their own theories.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I would really like to find a comprehensive listing of all the fossils found everywhere, at what location and in what layer and how the layer was dated etc. Shouldn't there be such a reference easily accessible?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Mostly by the orientation of each nautiloid ... ... and since you said that there were "a billion or so" of them, one has to admire his dedication. Austin himself claims to have measured 71 of them, but his results do not seem to be available on the internet.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I would really like to find a comprehensive listing of all the fossils found everywhere, at what location and in what layer and how the layer was dated etc. Shouldn't there be such a reference easily accessible? Yes, that would indeed be nice. At present there are an estimated quarter of a million known fossil species, and of course many of these are represented by more than one fossil. So that would be quite a big job.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Austin himself claims to have measured 71 of them, but his results do not seem to be available on the internet. Yeah, well, you can't really trust anything that Dr. Steve Austin, PhD Geology, says, because first and foremost he is a creationist. As a PhD Geology, he knows about radiometric dating and what indications to watch out for that would indicate conditions that would through a particular dating method off. So he has deliberately used that knowledge to seek out samples that he knew would yield false dates. As a post-graduate student, he was hired by professional creationists (eg, the ICR) to earn his doctorate in geology and then come work for them so that they could claim to have a PhD in Geology on their staff. While working on his doctorate, he wrote several geology articles for his benefactors which were published in the Creation Research Society Quarterly under his pseudonym, Stuart Nevins. I have read a number of those articles. In those articles, he made many false statements and gross misrepresentations about geology, statements that any second-year geology undergraduate would know for a fact were false. He did that while a post-graduate student, so there is no way that he could not have known that what he was saying was completely false. He could not defend those articles by pleading ignorance, nor idiocy nor incompetence, since the extremely heavy intellectual and work demands that a real PhD program places on its candidates will weed out the idiots and the incompetents very quickly. What we're left with is that he must be incredibly dishonest.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 878 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
I would really like to find a comprehensive listing of all the fossils found everywhere, at what location and in what layer and how the layer was dated etc. Shouldn't there be such a reference easily accessible?
Yes, that would indeed be nice. Did you know about these resources? This one shows locations of collections in both current location and paleogeologic reconstruction.
PBDB Navigator This one has access to specimen data and 39,000+ images
Burke Museum This one has data on over 1 million occurrences:
Fossilworks / Paleobiology Database HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Are you talking about online sources? I'm physically unable to go to outside sources. But why shouldn't anyone at EvC who has a good source be unwilling to pass on the information? Faith, didn't you even begin to bother to read what I had written?
DWise1 writes: The information is all there in the university libraries. All state universities are required to comply with ADA requirements. Or you could hire a "service monkey", a student, preferably majoring in paleontology or geology, to go do the researching for you. The information is there in the libraries. What part of "in the university libraries" are you incapable of understanding? If you cannot or will not go yourself, then hire a student to do your researching. A graduate student in that field should be a good candidate. I'm sure that if you were to call the geology or paleontology department that they could recommend one of their students. Of course, that would require you to speak with an actual geologist and I remember the series of screaming hysterics you flew into the last time I suggested that, so please refrain this time.
An honest Christian Creationist knows the Bible is God's own inspired word. Who said anything about your god or your theology's ideas about the Bible? Creation science discussions are based on the creationists fundamental lie that they have scientific evidence to support their claims. As such, scientific sources are referenced and "scientific sources" are cited (though more often than not creationists will cite other creationists (or more commonly use other creationists as their sources while citing those other creationists' "scientific citations" and lie that those are their own sources) or science popularizations (eg, Popular Science, Reader's Digest) or out-dated sources since superceded by new discoveries. But first and foremost in "creation science", the creationist must do everything he can to hide the fact that there is nothing scientific about his claims, but rather it's all based on his narrowly sectarian religious beliefs -- the game of "Hide the Bible" is the very basis of "creation science" and is the reason why it was created in the first place as a deliberate deception whose purpose was to fool the post-Epperson courts. Thus, in "creation science" discussions the creationist is normally intent on covering up the lies behind his claims, so his role demands dishonesty as well as a steadfast refusal to research any claims, whether they be his own or his opponent's. But sometimes there comes along a creationist who is honest and is willing to do the research into the claims that is needed. And when he does not that research, then he will learn the truth behind those claims. He will find himself facing reality. Did you even bother to read that excerpt? Did you even bother to follow that link? Of course not. You want to avoid having to face reality. Make that call and hire that student.
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edge Member (Idle past 1727 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
There is another ruinous part to the Stuart Nevins story. Steve Austin has claimed that the aftermath of the Mount Saint Helens eruption is what converted him to Young Earth Creationism. However, the fact is that he had published creationist articles as Stuart Nevins long prior to the eruption. Draw you own conclusion...
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is another ruinous part to the Stuart Nevins story. Steve Austin has claimed that the aftermath of the Mount Saint Helens eruption is what converted him to Young Earth Creationism. However, the fact is that he had published creationist articles as Stuart Nevins long prior to the eruption. Draw you own conclusion... PLEASE POST PROOF. This is highly unlikely and I suspect slander.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Here's a video of him discussing Mt. St. Helens. In the first few minutes he is asked to tell how his own thinking was affected by the event, and what he says is that it confirmed his dissertation. NOT that it made a YEC out of him. If he said that somewhere else you need to show that. If it was about his dissertation then he was already a geologist, sent to study geology AS A CREATIONIST.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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