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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 1163 (786225)
06-19-2016 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
06-18-2016 9:31 PM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
Mostly by the orientation of each nautiloid ...
...Austin himself claims to have measured 71 of them, but his results do not seem to be available on the internet.
He discusses it in this video at about 10:50:
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:31 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 77 of 1163 (786228)
06-19-2016 3:00 AM


The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Since Faith wants to talk about the fossils of the Redwall Limestone, let's connect them to the topic. Let's have a little look at the Redwall fauna.
There are crinoids such as Teleiocrinus, Agaricocrinus, Platycrinites --- but no modern crinoid genera.
There are foraminifera such as Endothyra and Eomillerella --- but no modern foram genera.
There are corals such as Michelinia, Ekvasophyllum, Lithostrotion, Dorlodotia, Zaphrenites --- but no modern coral genera. So tabulate and rugose corals are found in the Redwall but not in the present, whereas stony corals, which are found in the present, are entirely absent from the Redwall.
There are gastropods such as Straparollus, Rhineoderma, Baylea, and Loxonema --- but no modern gastropod genera.
There are cephalopods such as Poterioceras and Triboloceras --- but no modern cephalopod genera.
There are blastoids --- an extinct type of stemmed echinoderm. These include Cryptoblastus, Orophocrinus, Lophoblastus, Globoblastus, and Pentremites. But there are no more modern types of echinoderm such as sand dollars.
There are trilobites --- extinct crustaceans. But no crustacean types of more modern origin, such as lobsters.
So the raging waters of the Flood managed to somehow sort into one place a bunch of species which weren't going to make it to the present day, putting them together despite their disparities in size and shape, while carefully abjuring those in the same classes which would --- carefully picking out just those corals, those crinoids, those crustaceans which weren't going to make the cut.
The Flood was not only clever enough to do that, it managed to avoid depositing any land animals in the Redwall Limestone. Or, indeed, any sea creatures later than the Paleozoic: no ichthyosaurs, or plesiosaurs, or whales, or teleost fish ...
In short, it produced exactly what Those Evil Godless Paleontologists expect to see in an in situ assemblage of marine Carboniferous fauna. Which is strange, because, as we all know, there was no such thing as the Carboniferous Period --- was there?

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 1163 (786229)
06-19-2016 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
06-18-2016 9:09 PM


Re: TOPIC
It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer.
If I said exactly the same thing, including using scare quotes around the words honest, these words would be easily recognizable as an indictment of your approach. Yeah, there are many ways to do that for questions, but of course by definition, most of those ways are completely wrong. Apparently, though, the goal is not to be right, but to have an explanation, and therefore all of those myriad ways are perfectly viable and honest.
Just wow.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:09 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 1163 (786235)
06-19-2016 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by NoNukes
06-19-2016 3:19 AM


Re: TOPIC
It's probably a good thing I don't have a clue what you are trying to say. But that's my usual experience with your posts. That was a perfectly reasonable post of mine, about how creationists can't and don't expect to answer all questions. What you turned it into is a mystery.
And, people aren't honest who come to the conclusion that the Bible is wrong, even if they think they are being honest. Perhaps the thought is a tad too complex for you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 1163 (786236)
06-19-2016 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2016 3:00 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Dr A writes:
Since Faith wants to talk about the fossils of the Redwall Limestone, let's connect them to the topic. Let's have a little look at the Redwall fauna.
There are crinoids such as Teleiocrinus, Agaricocrinus, Platycrinites --- but no modern crinoid genera.
There are foraminifera such as Endothyra and Eomillerella --- but no modern foram genera.
There are corals such as Michelinia, Ekvasophyllum, Lithostrotion, Dorlodotia, Zaphrenites --- but no modern coral genera. So tabulate and rugose corals are found in the Redwall but not in the present, whereas stony corals, which are found in the present, are entirely absent from the Redwall.
There are gastropods such as Straparollus, Rhineoderma, Baylea, and Loxonema --- but no modern gastropod genera.
There are cephalopods such as Poterioceras and Triboloceras --- but no modern cephalopod genera.
There are blastoids --- an extinct type of stemmed echinoderm. These include Cryptoblastus, Orophocrinus, Lophoblastus, Globoblastus, and Pentremites. But there are no more modern types of echinoderm such as sand dollars.
There are trilobites --- extinct crustaceans. But no crustacean types of more modern origin, such as lobsters.
You obviously think all this proves something against the Flood but it's exactly what we'd expect of the antediluvian world -- creatures galore of a different form from those that came later. Some pretty odd ones in comparison with those we are familiar with, though recognizably the same species. Most species change, you know, they microevolve all the time, few are going to stay the same. Those that got preserved as fossils are simply the forms that were thriving in the antediluvian world. Those we have now either evolved from those that survived, or happened to be the type that did survive-- that's all that makes them "modern," that they are living today.
So the raging waters of the Flood managed to somehow sort into one place a bunch of species which weren't going to make it to the present day, putting them together despite their disparities in size and shape, while carefully abjuring those in the same classes which would --- carefully picking out just those corals, those crinoids, those crustaceans which weren't going to make the cut.
Of course, again, there were early forms of all creatures before the Flood, that died in the Flood. Those that survived went on microevolving of into today's forms, or as I also surmise above, perhaps it was simply those that seem more "modern" to us that DID survive.
The Flood was not only clever enough to do that, it managed to avoid depositing any land animals in the Redwall Limestone. Or, indeed, any sea creatures later than the Paleozoic: no ichthyosaurs, or plesiosaurs, or whales, or teleost fish ...
Probably because the redwall limestone isn't high enough in the geo column to have collected land animals, or the larger sea creatures.
In short, it produced exactly what Those Evil Godless Paleontologists expect to see in an in situ assemblage of marine Carboniferous fauna.
Equally expected by Floodists, however, as antediluvian creatures.
Which is strange, because, as we all know, there was no such thing as the Carboniferous Period --- was there?
Yes you are quite right about that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 3:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 06-19-2016 9:59 AM Faith has replied
 Message 85 by edge, posted 06-19-2016 10:44 AM Faith has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 1163 (786237)
06-19-2016 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
06-19-2016 9:03 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
If they were buried by one of the Biblical Floods then they were alive at the time the flood happened as were all the mammals and fish and sea mammals.
How did the flood manage to bury only those critters without burying all the fish, sea mammals and other animals that were alive at the same time?
Why are fossils of those critters NEVER found in the same layer as fossils of mammals, fish, sea mammals?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 9:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:16 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 1163 (786238)
06-19-2016 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
06-19-2016 9:59 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
If they were buried by one of the Biblical Floods then they were alive at the time the flood happened as were all the mammals and fish and sea mammals.
There was only one Biblical Flood.
And yes they were alive.
How did the flood manage to bury only those critters without burying all the fish, sea mammals and other animals that were alive at the same time?
All land animals were represented on the ark, those left out were killed in the Flood.
Sea creatures died in huge numbers though some had to survive because they are living today. I can only guess at how some managed to live while most died. I would guess that most died because of all the sediment in the water that suffocated them. Those that lived happened to be where the water was cleaner.
Why are fossils of those critters NEVER found in the same layer as fossils of mammals, fish, sea mammals?
Don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 06-19-2016 9:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 83 of 1163 (786239)
06-19-2016 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
06-19-2016 12:48 AM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
PLEASE POST PROOF. This is highly unlikely and I suspect slander.
Here is a report from Karen Bartlett in 1998, on a trip to the ICR creation museum led by Steve Austin.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icr-visit/bartelt1.html
"At the end of the presentation Austin was confronted by another member of our group, who asked, "Whatever happened to Stuart Nevins? Does he publish anymore?" Those of you familiar with ICR literature may recognize the name from tracts published in the late 70's. Austin admitted that he had published under that penname. So much for his recent, Mt. St. Helen's-induced conversion to creationism."
Here is an article published by Stuart Nevins M.S.:
On the Origin of Coal | The Institute for Creation Research
We see that many positive evidences have appeared which strongly support the allochthonous theory and the accumulation of many of the coal layers during the Noachian Flood. Upright fossil trees within coal seams suggest rapid accumulation of the vegetable debris. Marine animals and terrestrial (not swamp-dwelling) plants in coal imply transportation. The microstructure of many coal strata shows particle orientation, sorted texture, and microlamination indicating transportation (not growth-in-place) of plant material. Boulders present in coal demonstrate transportation processes. The absence of a soil below many coal strata argues for the drifting of coal-forming plants. Coal appears to form a regular and typical portion of the cyclothem being as clearly water-laid as the other rocks. Experiments in the alteration of vegetable material show that coal resembling anthracite does not require millions of years to form, but can be produced rapidly by a short heating process.
There is no date on this article, but note the "M.S." after the author's name, so we can infer that it was before Austin received his PhD in 1979.
Mt. Saint Helens erupted in 1980.
Note that the article is written for the ICR which does not publish non-creationists and that Nevins hits all of the talking points on coal as though he is thoroughly steeped in them.
There is more that I've heard from verbal communication with some of his contemporaries, but that would be hearsay at this point.
Basically, the record shows that Steve Austin plays loose and fast with the facts. He is not to be trusted in any legitimate forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 12:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 84 of 1163 (786240)
06-19-2016 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
06-19-2016 10:16 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Faith writes:
All land animals were represented on the ark, those left out were killed in the Flood.
Sea creatures died in huge numbers though some had to survive because they are living today. I can only guess at how some managed to live while most died. I would guess that most died because of all the sediment in the water that suffocated them. Those that lived happened to be where the water was cleaner.
That depends on which of the two Biblical Flood myths you are using as a reference. According to Genesis 7 everything living gets wiped out except what is on the ark and that would include anything in the sea. But that's one of the great things about the Bible stories; there are so many contradictions you can pick a piece out of context to prove most anything.
But that still does not answer the question.
Why are no modern fish, modern crustaceans, modern sea mammals or modern animals every found in the same layer as those critters anywhere in the world?
Why is there a layer above the Redwall that does contain fossils of winged insects, vertebrate animals, ferns and other land plants but none of the critters found in the Redwall formation?
And then why above that layer is there a layer that has sand dunes and tracks of scorpions and millipedes and lizard like critters.
And then even higher there is a layer with corals and terrestrial plants and other animals and shark teeth?
If this is all the result of some flood, how did the flood sort the critters it buries in exactly the order expected if each layer represents what would have been living at the time the layer was put down?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:45 AM jar has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 85 of 1163 (786241)
06-19-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
06-19-2016 9:03 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
You obviously think all this proves something against the Flood but it's exactly what we'd expect of the antediluvian world -- creatures galore of a different form from those that came later.
Okay so, from which antedeluvian (Precambrian?) animal did the lobster micro-evolve from?
I mean, if they all lived together, or at least at the same time, why not find some lobster-like creature in the Precambrian?
And I haven't even started on dinosaurs or mammals yet.
Some pretty odd ones in comparison with those we are familiar with, though recognizably the same species.
So then, the precursors should be pretty easy to find, eh?
Most species change, you know, they microevolve all the time, few are going to stay the same. Those that got preserved as fossils are simply the forms that were thriving in the antediluvian world. Those we have now either evolved from those that survived, or happened to be the type that did survive-- that's all that makes them "modern," that they are living today.
Okay, so trace that lineage back to the antedeluvian world. Some YEC researcher must have done that by now.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 9:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:54 AM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 1163 (786242)
06-19-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
06-19-2016 10:38 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
According to Genesis 7 everything living gets wiped out except what is on the ark and that would include anything in the sea.
No, it doesn't:
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
"Face of the earth" is taken to refer to the LAND.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 06-19-2016 10:38 AM jar has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 87 of 1163 (786243)
06-19-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
06-19-2016 9:03 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
You obviously think all this proves something against the Flood but it's exactly what we'd expect of the antediluvian world -- creatures galore of a different form from those that came later.
Your explanation is evolution?
Welcome aboard, I guess. Except that you wish to cram 300 million years of evolution into four thousand years?
Some pretty odd ones in comparison with those we are familiar with, though recognizably the same species.
No, Faith, not even the same genera. Or family, or order ... tabular and rugose corals, for example, are different orders in the class of corals. Trilobites and lobsters are different subphyla in the phylum of arthropods. Are you going to tell me that lobsters evolved from trilobites in four thousand years? Have you ever looked at a lobster and a trilobite?
Probably because the redwall limestone isn't high enough in the geo column to have collected land animals, or the larger sea creatures.
Why do land animals and the larger sea creatures come higher in the geological column? That's a large part of what this thread is about, your explanation can't involve just assuming that this is just the sort of thing that happens.
Equally expected by Floodists ...
Really? If you're told by Evil Godless Scientists that they've dated rocks to the Carboniferous, creationists would expect those rocks to contain no trace of a lobster? On what grounds is that expectation formed? How do you get from belief in a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis --- to a relationship between radioactive decay and malacostrians?
You can't, can you? No, what you need are two more pieces of information: first, that the same Evil Godless Scientists say that lobsters didn't evolve 'til the Cretaceous; and second, that the fossil record always looks as though the Evil Godless Scientists are right. Then you can start expecting that there'll be no lobsters in these so-called "Carboniferous" rocks. Without those additional data points, you could form no expectations at all about which rocks would contain lobsters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 9:03 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 1163 (786244)
06-19-2016 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by edge
06-19-2016 10:44 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Okay so, from which antedeluvian (Precambrian?) animal did the lobster micro-evolve from?
"Antediluvian" means pre-Flood. The Flood built ALL the strata, not just the Precambrian rocks.
http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/...roups/crustacea/fossils.html
By the Carboniferous, all the other major groups of crustaceans are present except for the Eucarida. Most of these fossils are found within shallow marine sediments because these offered good potential for preservation. The Eucarida appeared in the Mesozoic, but they had their origins in the Devonian/Carboniferous. The Eucarida, especially the Decapoda, underwent an adaptive radiation during the Jurassic, with the appearence of crabs and modern shrimps. The crabs and lobsters carried on diversifing to become one of the major groups of marine organisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by edge, posted 06-19-2016 10:44 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by edge, posted 06-19-2016 11:12 AM Faith has replied
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 Message 97 by caffeine, posted 06-19-2016 2:08 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 89 of 1163 (786245)
06-19-2016 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
06-19-2016 10:45 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Faith writes:
jar writes:
According to Genesis 7 everything living gets wiped out except what is on the ark and that would include anything in the sea.
No, it doesn't:
Genesis 7 writes:
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
"Face of the earth" is taken to refer to the LAND.
No, you mean YOU and the other apologists take it to refer to the LAND; but it does not say land. The seas are certainly on the face of the earth.
But even if what you assert were true, that still does not answer the question or solve the fact that what is seen refutes the stories is really is what is actually there.
Why are no modern fish, modern crustaceans, modern sea mammals or modern animals every found in the same layer as those critters anywhere in the world?
Why is there a layer above the Redwall that does contain fossils of winged insects, vertebrate animals, ferns and other land plants but none of the critters found in the Redwall formation?
And then why above that layer is there a layer that has sand dunes and tracks of scorpions and millipedes and lizard like critters.
And then even higher there is a layer with corals and terrestrial plants and other animals and shark teeth?
If this is all the result of some flood, how did the flood sort the critters it buries in exactly the order expected if each layer represents what would have been living at the time the layer was put down?
If the flood is burying and killing what is living at the time, how does the flood you assert happened sort the various fossils into different types of materials and different layers?
Edited by jar, : left out a couple words that made a sentence gibberish.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:45 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 90 of 1163 (786247)
06-19-2016 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
06-19-2016 10:54 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
"Antediluvian" means pre-Flood. The Flood built ALL the strata, not just the Precambrian rocks.
http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/...roups/crustacea/fossils.html
It seems like you are saying that lobster-like creatures evolved during the fludde.
Or are you saying that there are not rocks that are pre-fludde so that you don't have to provide evidence for your statement?
Well, it turns out that we do have marine fossils older than the Jurassic, so where are the precursors from which the Jurassic creatures micro-evolved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 1:50 PM edge has replied

  
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