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Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 198 of 414 (774485)
12-18-2015 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
03-22-2010 3:30 AM


Fig Newton Of Your Imagination
I would tend to think that atheists not only have no belief, they would claim that everyone elses belief is a product of their imagination.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2015 12:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 233 of 414 (774657)
12-20-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Tanypteryx
12-20-2015 11:19 AM


Where does current evidence lead?
Based on the evidence (or the lack thereof), what would you say is the most creative known force in the universe?
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-20-2015 11:19 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-20-2015 11:53 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 266 of 414 (774789)
12-22-2015 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Tangle
12-22-2015 12:17 PM


All they are saying is that the possibility of God has not been ruled out---whereas you think evidence is everything and that God is likely an impossibility.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2015 12:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2015 2:55 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 414 (786161)
06-17-2016 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Tangle
12-24-2015 2:54 AM


GOD by definition
Tangle writes:
I don't believe there is a god. I don't know whether there is or not but I see no evidence for one. So I've concluded there isn't one pending contradictory information.
I can't know, but I can believe or not believe.
I respect that!
I think it would be helpful, however, for us all to come to some sort of consensus on the definition of the thing we do or do not believe in.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Tangle, posted 12-24-2015 2:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2016 6:43 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 414 (786177)
06-18-2016 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Tangle
06-17-2016 6:43 PM


Re: GOD by definition
quote:
god (ɡɒd)
n
1. (Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force.
2. (Ecclesiastical Terms) an image, idol, or symbolic representation of such a deity
3. any person or thing to which excessive attention is given: money was his god.
4. a man who has qualities regarded as making him superior to other men
5. (Theatre) (in plural) the gallery of a theatre

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2016 6:43 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 06-18-2016 9:10 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 414 (786189)
06-18-2016 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
06-18-2016 9:10 AM


Re: GOD by definition
I always like your definition...The Creator Of All Seen And Unseen. That sums up my belief, also.
Where we usually disagreed is that I believed that God had a soft spot for humans over pond scum and other less complex living organisms...whereas you never limited your belief in GOD to be exclusively for mankind.
Edited by Phat, : added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 06-18-2016 9:10 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 414 (786191)
06-18-2016 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Diomedes
06-17-2016 2:36 PM


Claims and counterclaims
To reiterate, atheism is not a belief system. It is merely a response to a claim. In the same way that theism alone is also not a belief system. It is also a response to a claim.
Believers would assert that without faith it is impossible to please God.
Atheists may well assert that without evidence it is impossible to prove God.
perhaps some key questions to ask:
  • Is evidence in and of itself the key criteria behind establishment of fact?
  • Is faith all that a believer ever has to go on? If so, does this constitute weak faith or strong faith?
  • Is the burden of proof on either side? Or is it all a wash?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 286 by Diomedes, posted 06-17-2016 2:36 PM Diomedes has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 293 of 414 (786192)
    06-18-2016 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 207 by ringo
    12-19-2015 12:23 PM


    Ringos Believe It Or Not
    According to the all-powerful Yahoo! Answers:
    quote:
    Disbelief is being shaken up by a challenge to a belief about something or someone
    Unbelief is active rejection of a belief
    Nonbelief is non -acceptance of a belief
    "I can't believe you said that!" is disbelief. In this particular example, you know it's true but you still "can't believe".
    Not believing in Odin is nonbelief. You can believe in Ganesh and non-believe in Odin at the same time.
    What you're describing is more like unbelief: Unbelievers believe that God un-exists.
    I personally don't believe that any gods exist but I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as an agnostic. I have no active unbelief.
    Do you personally feel as if evidence would persuade you or others or are you more of the camp that prefers not to believe for reasons other than evidence?(Personal preference, perhaps)
    There are some who would prefer that there be no God. There are others who wish fervently that it were so.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by ringo, posted 12-19-2015 12:23 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 294 by Theodoric, posted 06-18-2016 11:59 PM Phat has replied
     Message 297 by ringo, posted 06-19-2016 3:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 316 by Theodoric, posted 06-21-2016 10:38 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 303 of 414 (786371)
    06-21-2016 1:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 301 by Dr Adequate
    06-20-2016 10:59 PM


    Belief As A Concept.
    good point. Sometimes we forget to consider how others might think. Not everyone thinks alike by any means.
    If I read a story of fiction, I may acknowledge that some of the characters believe certain ways about certain elements of the story but this in and of itself does not mean I share the belief(s) that the characters in the story express.
    If I personally have a belief about God or about some element or thing that cannot be objectively proven or evidenced (hence belief) I cannot expect others to share my belief or even to understand it beyond acknowledgement of it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 301 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2016 10:59 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 315 of 414 (786419)
    06-21-2016 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 314 by New Cat's Eye
    06-21-2016 2:11 PM


    Evidence vs Faith
    "Only natural beings exist on this planet and none of the extra-things that anybody may come up with are going to be real. None of them exist. Disbelieve them all, son, and go and spread this truth. There are no hidden beings around us."
    I respectfully disagree with this assessment though in regards to strict objective evidence I cannot refute it.
    So I'll leave it alone and allow you the same right to your belief as you allow me my right to mine.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 314 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2016 2:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 317 of 414 (786459)
    06-22-2016 2:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 294 by Theodoric
    06-18-2016 11:59 PM


    Re: Ringos Believe It Or Not
    I dont have any specific examples...I just know that I talk to a lot of people...and they dont want to know God...or at least the god I market.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 294 by Theodoric, posted 06-18-2016 11:59 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 319 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 10:52 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 327 of 414 (786509)
    06-22-2016 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 320 by Theodoric
    06-22-2016 10:59 AM


    All Insults Aside
    Theodoric writes:
    Please stop trying to impute the feelings of people that have a different view of the supernatural than you do. It is extremely insulting.
    I could just as easily say you believe in a god, because you are incapable of taking personal responsibility. Or that you fear the unknown so you are willing to believe anything.
    I would be wrong though, because I have no idea why you have the faith you do. So quit telling other people why they believe what they believe. It is insulting.
    To start with, insulting you is the least of my worries. We are on a debate board and we often challenge each other, often aggressively. You yourself made a comment that I might be finally "getting it" when not two sentences later you tell me to stop speculating on your beliefs without knowing. So get over it.
    As to your feelings and beliefs I can honestly say that I don't know them. I DO know that you are of above average intelligence and education and that you have studied the bible before. I can guess that you believe that the book was inspired solely by humans and not by God or some external force. Therefore if i quote scriptures to you they will only be reflections of what I believe. You are right about a few things, however... IMHO.
    Theodoric writes:
    No-belief is actually the default.
    In my opinion this is truth. Paul tells us in Romans, however, that
    quote:
    the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
    I realize that quoting scriptures is unimpressive and unconvincing to some. Need I name them specifically? No. I understand that people have different views. We all have had different experiences and have been taught and/or influenced differently as well.
    One thing that I strongly believe is that God understands the uniqueness and differences in individuals and if He wants to reach them he shall do so.
    Even if the Bible as written was symbolic and was a communication from humans to humans, there is much that can be learned. Many of the old ideas such as idolatry are to be found in a modern day context. Just go to a car show! I would enjoy an argument as to whether people in the modern age still worship and idolize things (and people..(SI swimsuit edition as prime example) without even necessarily believing that they are doing so. Of course this is all my opinion. You may well have different beliefs or world views.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 320 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 10:59 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 330 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 334 of 414 (786558)
    06-23-2016 9:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 331 by Tangle
    06-22-2016 5:35 PM


    For The Record
    quote:
    An evangelical atheist is an atheist who is not content merely with his own lack of faith but is also obsessed with (i) censoring expressions of faith by others and (ii) attempting to sow disbelief in others around him.
    Thats evil.
    You don't strike me as quite that mean, however..Tangle.
    After all, what harm can believers cause that would inspire us to try and make fewer of them?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 331 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2016 5:35 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 335 by jar, posted 06-23-2016 10:06 AM Phat has replied
     Message 341 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2016 3:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 336 of 414 (786561)
    06-23-2016 10:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 335 by jar
    06-23-2016 10:06 AM


    Re: For The Record
    Do you mean those people who are so sure of their "answers" that they dare not question them? If so I agree that asking questions is always a good trait.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 335 by jar, posted 06-23-2016 10:06 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 337 by jar, posted 06-23-2016 10:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 349 of 414 (827242)
    01-21-2018 10:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 345 by Stile
    06-27-2016 11:14 AM


    Where To Look
    Stile writes:
    If it's not rational to say you "know there is no god..." is it ever rational to say you "know there is no Santa Claus...?"
    With Santa Claus, we have a likely location on earth. You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 345 by Stile, posted 06-27-2016 11:14 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 350 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2018 1:47 AM Phat has replied
     Message 352 by Stile, posted 01-23-2018 9:39 AM Phat has replied

      
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