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Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
ringo
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Posts: 14510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 346 of 414 (786794)
06-27-2016 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Stile
06-27-2016 11:14 AM


Stile writes:

If we have reports on where something should be, how it should act... and we check those places and the consequences we should find, and nothing is ever found... over and over and over...


But we do find Santa Claus. We find him so ubiquitously that the only rational position is to by a polysantaclausist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Stile, posted 06-27-2016 11:14 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 347 of 414 (786833)
06-27-2016 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Stile
06-27-2016 11:14 AM


I think it is rational to say we have no evidence of such a thing. But I don't think I can know there is no supernatural. I have no knowledge there is not a god. I do have knowledge that there is no evidence for such a thing.

Semantics? Hair splitting? Maybe.

As for Santa Claus we can look at the literary and historical record to show its origins. So that is direct knowledge we have. Also, we know he does not visit our houses on Christmas.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Stile, posted 06-27-2016 11:14 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Stile, posted 06-28-2016 9:58 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3142
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 348 of 414 (786844)
06-28-2016 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Theodoric
06-27-2016 11:32 PM


Theodoric writes:

Semantics? Hair splitting? Maybe.

Yeah, on second thought, that's probably all my point comes down to.
Agreed upon definitions of "knowledge" and "rational" and such would probably clear it all up just fine.

As for Santa Claus we can look at the literary and historical record to show its origins. So that is direct knowledge we have. Also, we know he does not visit our houses on Christmas.

Agreed.
I would also say we have the same sort of direct evidence for God.
Possibly not a document from someone saying "I made God up.." But if that's the only sticking point between rationally knowing something exists or not... then I think it's on fairly shaky ground anyway.

If anyone cares to follow up on this line of thinking, this would probably be a better place to do such so as to not go too far off topic here.
Also, I love to shamelessly plug any thread I started in the past

I Know That God Does Not Exist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Theodoric, posted 06-27-2016 11:32 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Phat
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Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 349 of 414 (827242)
01-21-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Stile
06-27-2016 11:14 AM


Where To Look
Stile writes:

If it's not rational to say you "know there is no god..." is it ever rational to say you "know there is no Santa Claus...?"

With Santa Claus, we have a likely location on earth. You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Stile, posted 06-27-2016 11:14 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2018 1:47 AM Phat has responded
 Message 352 by Stile, posted 01-23-2018 9:39 AM Phat has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6308
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 350 of 414 (827333)
01-23-2018 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
01-21-2018 10:50 AM


Re: Where To Look
Phat writes:

quote:
You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.

Why? That is, why isn't "here" good enough?

Instead, all you need is a sufficiently complete definition of what you mean by "god." When your definition is so vague that it doesn't actually say anything, then can it even be said to exist?

But with regard to the North Pole and Santa, it's called "magic." That's the same claim that every theist has ever claimed regarding their god as to why it can't be detected where it is claimed to exist.

So if that's not acceptable with regard to Santa, why does it suddenly become legitimate for god?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 01-21-2018 10:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 351 of 414 (827334)
01-23-2018 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Rrhain
01-23-2018 1:47 AM


Re: Where To Look
Lets take this line of thought over to Stiles old thread.
Message 75

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2018 1:47 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3142
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 352 of 414 (827362)
01-23-2018 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
01-21-2018 10:50 AM


Re: Where To Look
Phat writes:

With Santa Claus, we have a likely location on earth. You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.

Right.

Santa Claus used to have a physical location.
Then we looked there, and there was no Santa Claus.

God used to have a physical location.
Then we looked there, and there was no God.

You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.

Read that carefully.

Now apply the idea to what some are trying to say about where God is now.
How can they know that something or someone is there until they can establish where there is?

Obviously, if someone is claiming that God exists... just "everywhere" or "you can't detect Him" or something like that... how are they making that claim?

They aren't.
Or, at least, we know they're not making such a claim rationally.

quote:
If it's not rational to say you "know there is no god..." is it ever rational to say you "know there is no Santa Claus...?"

What good is "being rational" if you can't be rational enough to say you know there is no Santa Claus?
Just be honest with yourself.
If you don't want to be rational... then don't be rational.
Just don't lie to yourself about it as that causes other internal issues and unhappiness that will be much more difficult to overcome (examples of the pitfalls of such things are evident all over these forums...)

So God isn't any more rational than Santa Claus.

Who cares?

Do you think God cares, if He exists?
If He did, wouldn't that make Him sensitive, immature and unworthy?

If you see the upsides and positives about being rational in certain situations... then use the power of rationality in those situations.

But if you try to re-define the idea of rationality so that you can feel like you're getting those upsides and positives in a situation where they just don't apply... you're only fooling yourself. And then you diminish the power of "real" rationality even when used where you used to enjoy it. ...because you'll "know" (because you taught it to yourself) that "rationality" isn't all that great anyway... it can't even help you find God.

Well, duh.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 01-21-2018 10:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 4:28 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10669
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 353 of 414 (827408)
01-23-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Stile
01-23-2018 9:39 AM


Re: Where To Look
Stile writes:

God used to have a physical location.
Then we looked there, and there was no God.

Where praytell was this location whence you speak?

Unless you are talking about Jesus... and the jury is out on whether or not He will return to his prior location...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Stile, posted 01-23-2018 9:39 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Taq, posted 01-23-2018 5:30 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 356 by Stile, posted 01-24-2018 9:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 354 of 414 (827417)
01-23-2018 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
01-23-2018 4:28 PM


Re: Where To Look
Phat writes:

Where praytell was this location whence you speak?

I thought most Christians were aware of the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctum where God was said to dwell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_of_Holies


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 4:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by jar, posted 01-23-2018 5:59 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 355 of 414 (827420)
01-23-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Taq
01-23-2018 5:30 PM


Re: Where To Look
Not quite right. In it was said to be a Presence of God, often a Female aspect of God and the Shekhinah is not really a Christian tradition or Biblical but certainly a useful challenge when playing Rabbinical Trivia.

I haven't won as many drinks with it as with the "Name the most Northern, Eastern, Western and Southern US States" challenge but it has paid its way.

Edited by jar, : needed an n


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 354 by Taq, posted 01-23-2018 5:30 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3142
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 356 of 414 (827434)
01-24-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
01-23-2018 4:28 PM


Re: Where To Look
Phat writes:

Where praytell was this location whence you speak?

Heaven. In the clouds.
Turns out there are no gods there.

Granted, it was a long time ago... but does that make it better or worse?

The point, regardless, is that people give Santa and God descriptions that can be tested in reality.

Some might be physical locations.
Some might be controlling certain weather.
Some might be helping this or that situation in reality.

In all cases where things can be checked, though... it comes down to the same answer. No Santa, and No God.

That leaves us with all the cases where things can't be checked.
Which leaves us with the problem of "rationality."

If it can't be checked... what's the rational reason to think Santa or God is there in the first place?
Other than, of course, that certain people want Santa or God to be somewhere... anywhere... and those are the only places left.

Not very rational for the idea of figuring out if they exist or not.
But, very helpful for the idea of holding onto a personally-desired story that doesn't seem to have any anchor in reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 4:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Pressie, posted 01-25-2018 7:22 AM Stile has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1901
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 357 of 414 (827447)
01-25-2018 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Stile
01-24-2018 9:36 AM


It's funny
To all you Philosophical types. I am a radical, militant atheist and I don't think that I would ever be tempted to put my male sex organ into the cloaca of Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. I don't even have chimney at home . Does that count as a belief or a non-belief?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Stile, posted 01-24-2018 9:36 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Stile, posted 01-25-2018 10:55 AM Pressie has responded
 Message 359 by Taq, posted 01-25-2018 2:30 PM Pressie has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3142
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 358 of 414 (827449)
01-25-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Pressie
01-25-2018 7:22 AM


Re: It's funny
Pressie writes:

Does that count as a belief or a non-belief?

"I don't know what's going on."
-The Cure


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Pressie, posted 01-25-2018 7:22 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 359 of 414 (827457)
01-25-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Pressie
01-25-2018 7:22 AM


Re: It's funny
Pressie writes:

To all you Philosophical types. I am a radical, militant atheist and I don't think that I would ever be tempted to put my male sex organ into the cloaca of Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. I don't even have chimney at home . Does that count as a belief or a non-belief?

If you read that quote with a strong Russian accent, it sounds awesome.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Pressie, posted 01-25-2018 7:22 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Pressie, posted 01-29-2018 5:06 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4369
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 360 of 414 (827461)
01-25-2018 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Tangle
12-19-2015 3:51 PM


Tangle writes:

We've done this to death in another thread so I'll just say this: agnostic is an anachronism that has had no sensible meaning since the enlightenment. We now accept that no-one actually knows whether there's a god or not. RAZD calls himself a deist and an agnostic, ringo says there's no god but isn't an atheist he's agnostic. I say I'm an atheist but I know that the non-existence of god can't be proven so I too am an agnostic.

Agnosticism is defunct as a concept. Ringo and I are atheists and RAZD believes in god/s

I'll say no more. Probably.

Just a quick question. What would you call someone who believes that there probably is an intelligent cause for our existence, but does not adhere to any specific religion, or even any particular belief in the nature of that intelligence? He isn't really theistic because he doesn't necessarily believe that this intelligence is at all involved with the world now, he isn't really a deist because he acknowledges that possibly he/she/it could be involved and he isn't an atheist either. Wouldn't agnostic fit that person better than any other term. I suggest that there is a lot of people who fall into that category.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Tangle, posted 12-19-2015 3:51 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 367 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2018 3:16 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
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