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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 466 of 1444 (785088)
05-27-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by ringo
05-27-2016 12:52 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
As a christian, I'm not interested in figuring out Gods reasoning,morality, or how and why some are known by him and others are not. I trust his perfection. It is my own issues that I worry (and pray) about. If in fact God (for some reason which you refer to as a voodoo entity) has a divine plan, I'm more interested in my own conduct and behavior rather than worrying if I get voodooed or not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by ringo, posted 05-27-2016 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Tangle, posted 05-27-2016 5:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 468 by ringo, posted 05-28-2016 12:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 470 of 1444 (785739)
06-09-2016 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Stile
05-30-2016 1:47 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Was there ever a moment (perhaps before the creation, perhaps during it..) where the Creator did not know the future of the creation?
No. God was, Is and always will be. There is never a moment that He was not.(or was unaware)
If no - then I cannot see a way free will could actually fit in. This would imply a creator thinking up our futures... and then creating them and "so it shall be." Such a mechanical creation seems to eliminate the possibility for free will, as I understand it.
I disagree. IF God is with me during every moment that I live, it is irrelevant whether He observes my free will in the past, present or future. In fact, the ONLY way that I could have a free will unknown by Him is if I myself were unknown by Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Stile, posted 05-30-2016 1:47 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Stile, posted 06-13-2016 9:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 471 of 1444 (785740)
06-09-2016 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Stile
05-30-2016 1:47 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
I think the way Cat Sci is explaining free will (the present is a fundamental reality of how time works, and therefore no one... not even a God... can "see the future" without removing free will). Is the most likely candidate of how things actually work. All the evidence we have seems to fit this picture, and it's the simplest picture without adding unnecessary elements.
You guys dont get it. The Body Of Christ is composed of those who know Christ and whom he knows. The Beast is essentially the "Body" of the Antichrist. Those unknown by God.
The Body of Christ was, (known before the foundations of the world) IS and forever will be.
The Beast once was (As a freewilled Lucifer who chose to rebel and become unknown) IS NOT (unknown by God) and yet IS for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Stile, posted 05-30-2016 1:47 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 06-10-2016 12:11 PM Phat has replied
 Message 480 by Stile, posted 06-13-2016 9:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 474 of 1444 (785787)
06-11-2016 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 473 by ringo
06-10-2016 12:11 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Perhaps God is preparing you to be satans defense attorney.
OR....perhaps you are referring to the naughty list, of which i would also want my name removed.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 06-10-2016 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by ringo, posted 06-11-2016 11:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 476 of 1444 (785820)
06-11-2016 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by ringo
06-11-2016 11:35 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
ringo writes:
I would like to be on the list of things He doesn't know.
Would Him knowing you and/or everything about you take away your free will?
Or is there another reason you reject this potential relationship?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by ringo, posted 06-11-2016 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by ringo, posted 06-12-2016 2:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 478 of 1444 (785882)
06-13-2016 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by ringo
06-12-2016 2:13 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Believers insist that there are rewards attached to a relationship with Him but the rewards always have strings attached. It's, "Do as I say and you'll be rewarded." Why would I want a relationship like that? If there was real free will, there would have to be an opt-out clause. I'll accept the natural consequences of my actions but you can keep the eternal damnation and the eternal reward.
So tell Him that. In my opinion, its not as you say. Nobody wants a relationship of any kind if they have to start obeying the other person and get bribed and threatened.
Personally, I think that honest skeptics have as good of a shot or better than "true" believers do. And you are right. Who cares about eternal reward? Lets just have a great communion today...in the present moment.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by ringo, posted 06-12-2016 2:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by ringo, posted 06-13-2016 12:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 489 of 1444 (785950)
06-13-2016 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by ringo
06-13-2016 12:10 PM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
ringo writes:
My free will says, "Let's not."
Party pooper!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by ringo, posted 06-13-2016 12:10 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 491 of 1444 (786162)
06-17-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by Hawkins
06-17-2016 1:24 PM


What GOD Thinks
Critics would argue, however, that if such a God DID exist with the characteristics you mention..they would have no interest in knowing Him even if He allowed it. Perhaps we need to agree on what God actually thinks....which is itself humorous when you think about it.
Personally I believe that the Creator of all seen and unseen wanted to have a relationship with us. Granted, critics would assert that I concluded this only from dogma which I was taught. The only evidence that i could present--apart from my beliedf and opinion--is scriptural...but then again critics would assert that scripture was entirely derived from the imagination of man rather than divinely inspired.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Hawkins, posted 06-17-2016 1:24 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 494 of 1444 (786194)
06-18-2016 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by ringo
06-18-2016 12:31 PM


Riddle me this and Google me that!
ringo writes:
Wouldn't the power to find out everything be close to omnipotence? Is there really a distinction between being able to find out anything and already knowing everything?
Nobody likes a know-it-all if the know-it-all uses their wisdom to belittle others. A know-it-all who shares their wisdom gains respect,however...and becomes a beloved teacher. Google knows close to everything only because everyone has contributed to the database. Google still doesn't know the inner thoughts of humans, however...
Power and knowledge are not synonymous.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 06-18-2016 12:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by ringo, posted 06-19-2016 2:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 497 of 1444 (786545)
06-23-2016 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 496 by ringo
06-19-2016 2:05 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
Not really.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by ringo, posted 06-19-2016 2:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by ringo, posted 06-23-2016 12:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 499 of 1444 (786731)
06-26-2016 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by ringo
06-23-2016 12:40 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
in order for God to be truly great, it only makes sense that everyone else pales by comparison. You want to have the same abilities as god has without having earned nor learned them..

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by ringo, posted 06-23-2016 12:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by ringo, posted 06-26-2016 3:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 501 of 1444 (786757)
06-26-2016 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by ringo
06-26-2016 3:06 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
OK, so this in essence proves my assertion that I made to Theodoric.
Phat writes:
There are some who would prefer that there be no God. There are others who wish fervently that it were so.
Theodoric writes:
So you going to stick with this?
This whole idea of "wanting to be left alone" seems to me to be a common theme among the two categories that Theodoric brought up.
Gnostic Atheist - Knows there is no god and does not believe either
Agnostic Atheist - Concedes has no knowledge there is no god, but has no belief or reason to believe there is.
Seems you have this irrational idea that even if god existed he would likely be mean and demanding...thus why not just leave humans alone to responsibly evolve into their own destiny?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by ringo, posted 06-26-2016 3:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 12:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 503 of 1444 (786889)
06-28-2016 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by ringo
06-27-2016 12:07 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
I can see where you would rationally conclude that you had more common sense and wisdom than any given "gun-toting" American. To assume that you have more wisdom at running your own life than a Creator of all seen and unseen...however....is hubris at best.
You can easily reject a God improperly described and defined by others. What you would be wise not to do, however, is to reject the actual GOD...
What makes you think that humans can get along better without GOD?
Seems to me your only evidence comes from other fallible and imperfect humans.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Asgara, posted 06-28-2016 10:57 PM Phat has replied
 Message 506 by ringo, posted 06-29-2016 12:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 505 of 1444 (786891)
06-28-2016 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Asgara
06-28-2016 10:57 PM


Subjective Experience
I suppose that could be considered a tad ironic!
For me personally, I dont count on evidence...I favor subjective experience. I also gather subjective experience of other humans....so i suppose I'm as guilty as i accuse ringo of being.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Asgara, posted 06-28-2016 10:57 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 507 of 1444 (786945)
06-29-2016 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by ringo
06-29-2016 12:49 PM


Re: Riddle me this and Google me that!
If there was intelligent life in the universe even slightly more advanced that us, would you think they could determine our interests better than we can ourselves? They'd be more likely to exterminate us like Indians and take our resources.
Which supports the argument that all life in general is at its core selfish. The whole point of the Bible story is not that of a GOD who incinerates us. (unless you are again being the public defender for satan and the fallen rebellious.)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by ringo, posted 06-29-2016 12:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by ringo, posted 06-30-2016 12:10 PM Phat has replied

  
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