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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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As a christian, I'm not interested in figuring out Gods reasoning,morality, or how and why some are known by him and others are not. I trust his perfection. It is my own issues that I worry (and pray) about. If in fact God (for some reason which you refer to as a voodoo entity) has a divine plan, I'm more interested in my own conduct and behavior rather than worrying if I get voodooed or not.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Was there ever a moment (perhaps before the creation, perhaps during it..) where the Creator did not know the future of the creation? No. God was, Is and always will be. There is never a moment that He was not.(or was unaware)
If no - then I cannot see a way free will could actually fit in. This would imply a creator thinking up our futures... and then creating them and "so it shall be." Such a mechanical creation seems to eliminate the possibility for free will, as I understand it. I disagree. IF God is with me during every moment that I live, it is irrelevant whether He observes my free will in the past, present or future. In fact, the ONLY way that I could have a free will unknown by Him is if I myself were unknown by Him. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I think the way Cat Sci is explaining free will (the present is a fundamental reality of how time works, and therefore no one... not even a God... can "see the future" without removing free will). Is the most likely candidate of how things actually work. All the evidence we have seems to fit this picture, and it's the simplest picture without adding unnecessary elements. You guys dont get it. The Body Of Christ is composed of those who know Christ and whom he knows. The Beast is essentially the "Body" of the Antichrist. Those unknown by God. The Body of Christ was, (known before the foundations of the world) IS and forever will be. The Beast once was (As a freewilled Lucifer who chose to rebel and become unknown) IS NOT (unknown by God) and yet IS for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Perhaps God is preparing you to be satans defense attorney.
OR....perhaps you are referring to the naughty list, of which i would also want my name removed. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: I would like to be on the list of things He doesn't know. Would Him knowing you and/or everything about you take away your free will? Or is there another reason you reject this potential relationship?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Believers insist that there are rewards attached to a relationship with Him but the rewards always have strings attached. It's, "Do as I say and you'll be rewarded." Why would I want a relationship like that? If there was real free will, there would have to be an opt-out clause. I'll accept the natural consequences of my actions but you can keep the eternal damnation and the eternal reward. So tell Him that. In my opinion, its not as you say. Nobody wants a relationship of any kind if they have to start obeying the other person and get bribed and threatened. Personally, I think that honest skeptics have as good of a shot or better than "true" believers do. And you are right. Who cares about eternal reward? Lets just have a great communion today...in the present moment.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Party pooper! My free will says, "Let's not."Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Critics would argue, however, that if such a God DID exist with the characteristics you mention..they would have no interest in knowing Him even if He allowed it. Perhaps we need to agree on what God actually thinks....which is itself humorous when you think about it.
Personally I believe that the Creator of all seen and unseen wanted to have a relationship with us. Granted, critics would assert that I concluded this only from dogma which I was taught. The only evidence that i could present--apart from my beliedf and opinion--is scriptural...but then again critics would assert that scripture was entirely derived from the imagination of man rather than divinely inspired. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Nobody likes a know-it-all if the know-it-all uses their wisdom to belittle others. A know-it-all who shares their wisdom gains respect,however...and becomes a beloved teacher. Google knows close to everything only because everyone has contributed to the database. Google still doesn't know the inner thoughts of humans, however... Wouldn't the power to find out everything be close to omnipotence? Is there really a distinction between being able to find out anything and already knowing everything? Power and knowledge are not synonymous. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Not really.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
in order for God to be truly great, it only makes sense that everyone else pales by comparison. You want to have the same abilities as god has without having earned nor learned them..
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OK, so this in essence proves my assertion that I made to Theodoric.
Phat writes:
There are some who would prefer that there be no God. There are others who wish fervently that it were so.Theodoric writes: So you going to stick with this? This whole idea of "wanting to be left alone" seems to me to be a common theme among the two categories that Theodoric brought up.
Gnostic Atheist - Knows there is no god and does not believe either Seems you have this irrational idea that even if god existed he would likely be mean and demanding...thus why not just leave humans alone to responsibly evolve into their own destiny?Agnostic Atheist - Concedes has no knowledge there is no god, but has no belief or reason to believe there is. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I can see where you would rationally conclude that you had more common sense and wisdom than any given "gun-toting" American. To assume that you have more wisdom at running your own life than a Creator of all seen and unseen...however....is hubris at best.
You can easily reject a God improperly described and defined by others. What you would be wise not to do, however, is to reject the actual GOD... What makes you think that humans can get along better without GOD? Seems to me your only evidence comes from other fallible and imperfect humans. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I suppose that could be considered a tad ironic!
For me personally, I dont count on evidence...I favor subjective experience. I also gather subjective experience of other humans....so i suppose I'm as guilty as i accuse ringo of being.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If there was intelligent life in the universe even slightly more advanced that us, would you think they could determine our interests better than we can ourselves? They'd be more likely to exterminate us like Indians and take our resources. Which supports the argument that all life in general is at its core selfish. The whole point of the Bible story is not that of a GOD who incinerates us. (unless you are again being the public defender for satan and the fallen rebellious.)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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