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Author Topic:   Creation
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 254 of 1482 (786366)
06-20-2016 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ICANT
06-18-2016 6:59 PM


Re: translations
ICANT writes:
A text that was compiled between 700 and 1100 AD. A brand new version of the tanakh.
a version that was nearly identical to what we've recovered of the text from dead sea scrolls, some of which date to the second century BCE, and mostly concordant with the septuagint. the only major addition of the masoretic text is the system of vowel points, cantilation marks, and the emendations. the text itself -- the consonants -- are unmodified. maybe you should look this topic up somewhere; you seem very confused about it.
If it is only for pronunciation why do you keep saying a word has to be pointed in a certain way for a text word to mean one thing and if it is pointed in a different way it changes the meaning to something else.
are you sure you studied hebrew? sometimes the same set of consonants can be pronounced slightly differently.
If It is not another language why doesn't the Masoretic text look like the language in my avatar?
a language is the system of vocabulary, grammar and syntax that make up speech or writing.
a script is the set of characters used to write that language.
do you seriously not understand the difference between the two? i'm writing right now in english, using the latin script. spanish, french, german, etc are all separate languages, but also use the latin script. you can, believe it or not, write english in other scripts. for instance, braille.
biblical hebrew can be written in any abjad alef-bet with the appropriate characters present. is has been written in paleo-hebrew (the script in your avatar), aramaic script (as in the masoretic), samaritan script, mishnaic script, rashi script, and modern simplified hebrew script. this doesn't change the language -- it just changes the bloody font.
But we got along just fine without vowels. We simply used the designated Hebrew symbols like we do the English designated symbols we call vowels today.
i can't even figure out what you mean by this. did you use vowels, or not? alef and ayin are NOT vowels.
Yes I know you keep saying it is not a translation.
So why don't it look like my avatar which is Genesis 1:1?
uh, because their handwriting was a little different: Hebrew alphabet - Wikipedia
it's the same alef-bet and the same language, just written in a different script. i can't believe you're having such a hard time understanding this. just to mess with you, i'm going to write the rest of my post in a different "language".
I am having a hard time understanding how the Masoretic text could be the same language of the text Moses wrote as he would not be able to read or understand it.
why do you think moses would have a hard time understanding it? it's a simple matter of learning a slightly different script.
Well they did not have to point it to support my beliefs. Because it supports my beliefs without the Masoretic vowel points.
that's a negative. without the vowels, it reads as infinitive, for reasons already discussed.
1. The Masoretic text supports the standard translation of Genesis 1:1.
incorrect. the masoretic text contains a contradiction in its vowels; they are wrong by default. neither translation is supported by the vowels.
4. But according to arachnophilia the vowel points do not change anything but the pronunciation.
sometimes an infinitive construct is spelled using the same consonants, but pronounced different with different vowels. you have been shown that this is the case with ברא, as gen 1:1 amd gen 5:1 use different vowels. the pronunciation changes, but so does the part of speech.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2016 6:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2016 2:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 256 of 1482 (787042)
07-01-2016 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ICANT
06-23-2016 2:47 PM


Re: translations
ICANT writes:
What changes the sound of the consonants?
the vowels you choose to pronounce them with. though biblical hebrew did not originally contain a system to write vowels, people still used them in speech, obviously.
So if we change the font to the one I am using in this message using certain fonts to represent the fonts in my avatar my KJV Bible is written in Biblical Hebrew according to arachnophilia.
no, i'm saying a script change does not equal a language change. the KJV is written in english, regardless of what script i write it in. biblical hebrew is biblical hebrew, even if i were to use the latin alphabet to represent it.
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ
brashyt bra alhym hshmym and harts
according to archnophilia are the same thing (Biblical Hebrew), as the above line only uses a different font.
correct, minus the word "and".
though a proper transliteration (not a translation, transliteration) would be:
quote:
BR'SHYT BR' 'LHYM H-SHMYM W-ET H-'RTZ
in fact, you can find tons of older texts that represent biblical hebrew this way, due to typesetting issues. it's the same language -- the same vocabulary and grammar and syntax -- but a different alphabet.
א alef is a consonant that is pronounced as the first letter of its name.
ע ayin is a consonant that is pronounced as the first letter of its name.
incorrect, א is a glottal stop, ע is a voiced pharyngeal frictive. neither of those are "ah". they are consonantal sounds.
It only had consonants and each consonant had its own pronunciation just as our English consonants have.
each consonant had several sounds, depending context, and the vowel sound it implies. that's how abjad alef-bets work.
Not only was their handwriting a little different, they added a vowel system to the language.
i don't use capitals. you do. do you contend that the addition of capitals to your post means we are speaking in different languages. because it sure feels like it sometimes.
You and others take that vowel system and change the meaning of what was written by pointing consonants in different ways.
once again, i am arguing that we should ignore the vowels in this case, because they are wrong.
That makes the version produced by the Masoretes a different language even though they use the Jewish script.
no, try to keep up. it is a different script, but the same language.
Are you saying it would be simple for him to learn a completely new script system to replace the one he had been studying and using for nearly a hundred years?
I don't think so.
yes, learning a new script is trivial compared to learning a new language. surely you ran into this in your hebrew classes; how long did you spend studying the alef-bet? how long studying the language? what percentage of the course was devoted to each? i bet you moved past the alef-bet after the first week or so. i know i did.
and that's coming from english; our letters don't align 1:1. we don't have a letter for "sh" for instance.
You are having a very hard time learning what Moses wrote as your primary language is English. Therefore you are trying to understand what Moses wrote from a western view. In other words you are trying to make the language Moses used into English with all the problems we have with English.
no.
The language Moses used was a very simple language. It was not the convoluted mess that is called Biblical Hebrew today, which is viewed and studied from a western point of view.
"biblical hebrew today" is like saying "old english today". that doesn't make sense. biblical hebrew is the language the bible is written in. the primary biblical hebrew manuscripts we have are the masoretic text and the dead sea scrolls. the language has evolved from there, yes, but it's no longer called "biblical hebrew". it's currently called "modern hebrew".
and if you had studied any modern hebrew at all, you'd know that modern hebrew is actually much simpler. biblical hebrew as rather complex constructions of infinitives and genitive cases that moderns tends to shy away from in favor of simpler prepositions and such.
בָּרָא in Genesis 1:1.
בְּרֺא in Genesis 5:1.
What changes the part of speech of either of these verbs?
context.
There are two prefixes that will change the part of speech of a verb.
infinitive constructs do not always need prefixes. read your damned textbook or something.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2016 2:47 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by NoNukes, posted 07-10-2016 1:26 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
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