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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 241 of 1163 (787123)
07-04-2016 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by herebedragons
07-04-2016 7:31 AM


The question is WHY don't they subscribe to the stuff the "Big Boys" are putting out?
This is a good question. I think there is a combination of reasons. First, I'm not sure that all of them are aware of the professional creationist sources. They only hear what their friends say in their small circles, possibly second-hand stuff from the professionals, all garbled in translation. For certain, they don't understand it.
But mainly, I've always thought that the foot soldiers of YEC are forced to make stuff up because the big guns of YEC don't give them any support. The leaders are actually too smart to spend much time in forums like this, because they know that they will be outclassed by the educated participants. So, people like Faith and Mike end up floundering with no guidance. They have no armor. Or, they can go to forums like Fred Williams' and nod in agreement with each other.
And since it appears to be so acceptable in YECland to just make things up ... well, what do you expect?
I mean, these are the folks doing the "science" right?
Looking high and low for years now and it seems true that there is nothing new under the YEC sun. The professional YECs have failed their believers.
People that are adamant about creationism - meaning those that equate creationism to "Biblical Christianity" (mostly young earthers) - should be staunch supporters of those institutions that have supposedly proven that their beliefs are facts. Perhaps we just get the fringe creationists here and not the mainstream types who do subscribe to the stuff AiG and ICR put out.
Obviously, someone contributes to the coffers of creationist groups. But I think you are right, the crew (let's say the ones that are more militant) that we have on boards such at this seem to be self-selected for absolute stubbornness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by herebedragons, posted 07-04-2016 7:31 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 07-04-2016 3:31 PM edge has not replied
 Message 243 by JonF, posted 07-04-2016 3:53 PM edge has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(4)
Message 242 of 1163 (787125)
07-04-2016 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by edge
07-04-2016 2:39 PM


Young Earth and Creationism really are DOA
Percy really dislikes my use of the description "The Christian Cult of Ignorance" but unfortunately it is both the most accurate and kindest description I have ever found. What we see here and also in US politics, on the Avoidance School book lists, the Avoidance Accrediting Boards, the Avoidance Broadcasting Networks and all of the so-called Creation Science Marketing venues is classic willful ignorance. We see it in threads like this, like the thread started not too long ago on the "Science in Creationism", in threads like those on how salt beds get formed or how varves are created or the layers of the Grand Canyon is simply a refusal to address the issues raised.
The common factor to all of the YEC and Creationist positions is that they are ALL wrong, ALL TOTALLY WRONG, all a failure because they are based on a process designed not to find out what is correct but to support a prior held conclusion.
That is why no Creationist really tries to present a model, method, process, procedure or thingamabob that would actually explain what is seen EXCEPT when within a certified Avoidance Audience. This is why when any of the followers gives it a try they either simply refuse to address the issues like Mike or baffle folk with bullshit or pound the podium or just say others will burn in hell for what they say or the most common response particularly from those who claim to be Creation Scientists is to run away.
They are all based on Willful Ignorance, on not looking at reality, on Apologetics.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 243 of 1163 (787126)
07-04-2016 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by edge
07-04-2016 2:39 PM


Jonathan Sarfati posted at TWeb for a few years as Socrates. He was a jerk and wasn't much of a debater, spewing the same stuff as the sheeple.
John Baumgardner posted there too, for a couple of weeks about 14C after the RATE Group first came out with that. He was torn to shreds and disappeared in a cloud of Pascal's wager..
Walt Brown posted at the old Kansas Citizens for Science forum for a couple of weeks. When he realized that he was expected to defend his ideas beyond pasting from his book he bailed.
So the ones I've seen were no better than the sheeple and didn't have the perseverance. Not impressive at all outside the prayer circle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by edge, posted 07-04-2016 2:39 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by edge, posted 07-04-2016 7:34 PM JonF has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 244 of 1163 (787132)
07-04-2016 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by JonF
07-04-2016 3:53 PM


Jonathan Sarfati posted at TWeb for a few years as Socrates. He was a jerk and wasn't much of a debater, spewing the same stuff as the sheeple.
John Baumgardner posted there too, for a couple of weeks about 14C after the RATE Group first came out with that. He was torn to shreds and disappeared in a cloud of Pascal's wager..
Walt Brown posted at the old Kansas Citizens for Science forum for a couple of weeks. When he realized that he was expected to defend his ideas beyond pasting from his book he bailed.
So the ones I've seen were no better than the sheeple and didn't have the perseverance. Not impressive at all outside the prayer circle.
I remember a few sessions with Barry Setterfield, too. It didn't take long for him to bow out. We exchanged a few emails where he admitted that he was out of touch on geological matters after I criticized his website.
ETA: I have to say that he was more civil than most YECs.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 1163 (787133)
07-05-2016 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by herebedragons
07-04-2016 7:31 AM


The question is WHY don't they subscribe to the stuff the "Big Boys" are putting out?
Given how much of that stuff is clearly wrong, should not the question be how does somebody with any inclination to pursue a scientific explanation subscribe to any of it?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 246 of 1163 (787134)
07-05-2016 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by edge
07-04-2016 7:34 PM


I had an email conversation with Safarti once. He was an ass. He is especially touchy when you ask him his qualifications to discuss the subjects he expounds on.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by edge, posted 07-04-2016 7:34 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Pressie, posted 07-06-2016 6:28 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 247 of 1163 (787166)
07-06-2016 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Theodoric
07-05-2016 1:51 AM


I had an email conversation with Safarti once. He was an ass. He is especially touch when you ask him his qualifications to discuss the subjects he expounds on.
Me too.
He was especially proud of having visited my country, on creationist money and all that.
Doing all the touristy things and all that, too.
Then he pretended to be a specialist on all the rocks found in my country. Read it in The Bible. He claimed to be a specialist geologist on all rocks in SA after that visit. Creationist 'scientists' tend to pretend that by visiting somewhere they know it all.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2016 1:51 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Theodoric, posted 07-06-2016 5:37 PM Pressie has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 248 of 1163 (787183)
07-06-2016 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Pressie
07-06-2016 6:28 AM


I guess a doctorate in Chemistry makes you an expert on all scientific subjects.
I do not care what his specialty is, he is a condescending ass, that is incapable of defending his own arguments.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Pressie, posted 07-06-2016 6:28 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 249 of 1163 (787189)
07-07-2016 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Theodoric
07-06-2016 5:37 PM


Yes, but they play for their audiences. Mostly functionally scientifically illiterate as the vast majority of people in the world.
Creationists pretend that a scientist is a scientist is a scientist, no matter the myriad of scientific fields and disciplines within each field, etc.
Hence their flock are told by creationists that some inorganic chemist from Australia visiting SA for a few days would know as much of SA rocks as the combined knowledge of all those tens of thousands of local geologists who have actually studied those rocks for a living over the last 200 years. And all those exploration and mining companies, too.
Creationists seem to be inherently dishonest.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2016 6:38 AM Pressie has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 250 of 1163 (787191)
07-07-2016 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Pressie
07-07-2016 5:44 AM


Creationists seem to be inherently dishonest.
Yes. What a shame for humanity - thousands upon thousands of fully functioning humans who could do something good and valuable are duped into lies and deception and are (only) capable of doing bad things.
Creationism is based on dishonesty and thus its adherents are dishonest. Lying for God seems to be just okay. They deserve respect as humans but their ideas absolutely none, only ridicule (another matter is whether ridiculing is nice or productive...).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Pressie, posted 07-07-2016 5:44 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 251 of 1163 (787192)
07-07-2016 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by saab93f
07-07-2016 6:38 AM


saab93f writes:
Creationism is based on dishonesty and thus its adherents are dishonest
Actually, creationists trained in science and keeping on telling untruths are dishonest. I can give you a list of around 15 of them in my field, worldwide. That's about it. Out of hundreds of thousands of relevant scientists. Rocks in my case.
Now, those creationists lie. About everything. In my field I can refer to the most prominent of them: Snelling and Peczkis and Brandt and Austin and Walker, for example. Those guys tend to publish under different names in creationist 'publications' and pretend that there's a lot of them.
Their followers are not lying; they're mislead by liars and crazy people.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by saab93f, posted 07-07-2016 6:38 AM saab93f has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 1163 (787300)
07-09-2016 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by herebedragons
06-18-2016 11:21 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
It's nice to know all that information is available, as I thought it ought to be, but unfortunately it's not exactly layman-friendly. To make use of it to study the claims of the fossil record would require a lot of translation of terms for starters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by herebedragons, posted 06-18-2016 11:21 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2016 12:31 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 07-09-2016 12:34 PM Faith has replied
 Message 259 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2016 1:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 253 of 1163 (787302)
07-09-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
07-09-2016 12:17 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Faith writes:
It's nice to know all that information is available, as I thought it ought to be, but unfortunately it's not exactly layman-friendly. To make use of it to study the claims of the fossil record would require a lot of translation of terms for starters.
That's one problem we have in debating you on this site.
I did half my Ph.D. work in the fields of fossil man and osteology and I have handled casts of most of the important finds up until about 1980. I have kept up with a decent amount of the literature since then. I know a lot about the subject.
The problem: you don't.
You have convictions and opinions, but not the scientific background to debate the issues adequately or to support your convictions and opinions. You don't do your research and homework, and then you complain that we are using terms you don't understand. And to make matters worse, you just deny or "reinterpret" anything we present that does not fit your opinions, no matter how much it contradicts the real-world evidence.
You're doing religious apologetics, not science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 12:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 254 of 1163 (787303)
07-09-2016 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
07-09-2016 12:17 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Faith writes:
It's nice to know all that information is available, as I thought it ought to be, but unfortunately it's not exactly layman-friendly.
The same could be said for aviation. You can't learn to fly a 747 by reading a few articles on the Internet - but even creationists don't go up to the cockpit and tell the pilot he's doing it wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 12:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 1163 (787304)
07-09-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
07-09-2016 12:34 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Bogus comparison of course. Besides, unlike the expertise required to fly a 747, one would think the geology professionals would want the average person to have access to such basic data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 07-09-2016 12:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 07-09-2016 1:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 257 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2016 1:23 PM Faith has replied

  
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