Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 151 of 591 (781750)
04-07-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by jar
04-06-2016 4:04 PM


Re: prayer and fasting.
well for one thing, Jesus did both so I expect they have some value. It may take me awhile to do the necessary reading and study to give you a good answer, however. Be patient with me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 04-06-2016 4:04 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 152 of 591 (781759)
04-07-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
04-06-2016 2:33 PM


Re: Who Cares? Does It Matter?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
That's a misuse of the analogy.
How so?
The "leaving the nest analogy" is about growing up. Even if the whole world is "His nest", you can't deny that God wants us to grow up, can you?
And remember that when the Bible was written, extended families were the norm. Grown-up children didn't "leave the nest" in the sense that they moved out of their father's house - but they were expected to grow up, marry and bring their spouses into the nest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 04-06-2016 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 591 (781896)
04-09-2016 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
04-06-2016 9:58 AM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
I would tell the thoughtful sinner that though the paradox of man's sinful condition is perhaps unsolvable in a total philosophical sense, they nonetheless may have the peace of Christ which surpasses every man's understanding.
The point is that it is circular logic. God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up. That's like a firefighter who is secretly an arsonist who sets your house on fire just so that he can create for himself the opportunity to rescue you from the condition that he caused in the first place.
Does not having the answer to that question interfere with wanting to believe in the Son of God ? Do you doubt that you have sinned or that others have sinned against you, because you're not clear who to ultimately blame for those sins?
No, it's just that it's not relevant to whomever I sinned against or sinned against me. It is relevant when questioning the veracity of God's existence in the context of the bible.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 04-06-2016 9:58 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 5:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 160 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-18-2016 11:58 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 591 (781897)
04-09-2016 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Faith
04-06-2016 3:55 PM


Re: What Is Literal?
I don't know what the cut-off point is -- that is, how far you can go with not believing parts of it -- but I think it's risky to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe to be true as written.
You mean like excluding the verses of the bible that state that women in church must not speak and must have their heads covered (like Muslims)? Yeah, I can see how that kind of cherry-picking could be annoying.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 3:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 155 of 591 (782093)
04-15-2016 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2016 2:49 AM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
quote:
The point is that it is circular logic.
John Frame argues that there is no worldview that does not contain circular logic. I think he would say Marxism, Capitalism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism or any other world view contains circular logic.
Can you with reason prove that you can reason your way to truth ?
I don't think you can do so without circular reasoning.
Now in the case of God, He says He is the Alpha and the Omega. He says He is the Beginning and the End. He says He is the First and the Last. Seeing that God is the ground of our being and existence and our destinies consummate involving God, I sometimes wonder that thinking about reality will begin with God and end with God, therefore is necessarily circular.
While I contemplate that, you can contemplate how to reason that with reason man can arrive at truth (without arguing in a circle).
quote:
God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up.
This has been contemplated by some.
I have never been convinced that this has to be so. And if I were a Darwinist speculating that since the Big Bang nothing but deterministic materialism has predetermined everything, it does nothing to alleviate the mystery of choice of freedom of will.
If the gray matter in my material brain only firing off synapses about everything I believe, then I can take no credit for "choosing" to believe the truth or "choosing" to follow after error. Materially I was determined to do one or the other based on interactions of atoms. Then "choosing" to believe anything would be an illusion. What you believe, whatever you believe, was predetermined by material interactions wholly apathetic to your "freedom" to decide for the truth.
quote:
That's like a firefighter who is secretly an arsonist who sets your house on fire just so that he can create for himself the opportunity to rescue you from the condition that he caused in the first place.
Some people may see it that way. Agnosticism or Atheism (usually based on a materialist view of reality) does nothing to solve the paradox, as I have tried to show above.
If the Materialist Atheistic view is right, you didn't really choose to believe what you just told me to be the way the world works. No thanks to the Materialist for choosing what was true over what was not.
Your gray matter just pre-deterministically fired off neurons in the brain. From the Big Bang these interactions just happened in that way.
I'd rather go with real freedom of will to choose what is true. Though, I do admit, the total explanation of that is a hard matter for the limited human mind to grasp.
I see God warning the first man Adam.
I don't see blaming God for the ignoring of that warning.
I do, however, see God's transcendent foreknowledge prepared to not be stopped in His will by man's disobedient exercise of his free will.
quote:
Does not having the answer to that question interfere with wanting to believe in the Son of God ? Do you doubt that you have sinned or that others have sinned against you, because you're not clear who to ultimately blame for those sins?
No, it's just that it's not relevant to whomever I sinned against or sinned against me. It is relevant when questioning the veracity of God's existence in the context of the bible.
From a pragmatic viewpoint, that's seems right to me at the moment.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-09-2016 2:49 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 04-16-2016 12:36 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 164 by Pressie, posted 07-15-2016 7:17 AM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 591 (782108)
04-16-2016 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by jaywill
04-15-2016 5:53 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
jaywill writes:
Can you with reason prove that you can reason your way to truth ?
I don't think you can do so without circular reasoning.
It's more geodesic than circular; it's a web. On a circle, you keep passing the same point over and over again - but you can navigate the logic on a web by coming at a point from different directions on different paths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 5:53 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 04-16-2016 1:18 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 158 by jaywill, posted 04-16-2016 3:54 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 591 (782109)
04-16-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
04-16-2016 12:36 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
Plus often when it comes to determining truth there is also evidence and that is far more solid than reasoning.
For example when it comes to the topic of the Marketing of Christianity there is sufficient evidence that only by misusing reasoning could anyone deny that Christianity is a product created by many folk but not Jesus and that it has been marketed most often by coercion, force, fiat, propaganda, innuendo and politics.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 04-16-2016 12:36 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 158 of 591 (782112)
04-16-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
04-16-2016 12:36 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
quote:
It's more geodesic than circular; it's a web. On a circle, you keep passing the same point over and over again - but you can navigate the logic on a web by coming at a point from different directions on different paths.
It is not a geometry problem.
And if you do wish to convert it into a geometry problem a theist could probably use the same tactic to address any contradiction you might want to rationalize in theology.
I see no obvious reason why a clever theologian could not utilize the very same procedure to sidestep logical contradictions related to theology. ie. "Well, its a geodesic situation here, you know ?"
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 04-16-2016 12:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 04-17-2016 2:15 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 159 of 591 (782127)
04-17-2016 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by jaywill
04-16-2016 3:54 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
jaywill writes:
It is not a geometry problem.
You're the one who called it a circle.
jaywill writes:
I see no obvious reason why a clever theologian could not utilize the very same procedure to sidestep logical contradictions related to theology. ie. "Well, its a geodesic situation here, you know ?"
The obvious reason is that theologians come to so many different conclusions. If Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Raelians, etc. were using that procedure, then they would all be inter-connected. Yet theologians seem to concentrate on how disconnected their conclusions are from the "wrong" conclusions.
But as jar points out, unless there's some evidence to connect your conclusions to reality, it's just "turtles all the way down" - i.e. it's just unsupported logic; it's reasoning (whether sound or not) based on untested premises. A web of logic would be no better than a circle, unless it was supported at some of its points by evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jaywill, posted 04-16-2016 3:54 PM jaywill has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 160 of 591 (782138)
04-18-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2016 2:49 AM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
The point is that it is circular logic. God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-09-2016 2:49 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 04-18-2016 6:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 591 (782160)
04-18-2016 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by New Cat's Eye
04-18-2016 11:58 AM


Free Will
God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up.
I realize that this is true. Allow me to use an analogy. Say that you had a child...one whom you were trying to discipline to stay close to you for his/her own good. On the one hand you wanted to protect your child from all harm On the other, you wanted them to have the freedom to grow and learn to deal with challenges in life. Lets take the analogy further. You are the Creator of all seen and unseen.
Isaiah 45:7 writes:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Critics may ask why you had to create disaster. Why allow evil to exist? Why allow darkness to exist?
One answer is the concept of free will.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
synonyms:self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence....
Getting back to our analogy, if you told your child to stay indoors and never go outside of the house, they could always disobey you unless you had no such thing or place as outside.
So in summation...yes, God saves us from a condition He initially caused. Our salvation, however, is a choice that we choose.
Edited by Phat, : appallin spallin

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-18-2016 11:58 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Pressie, posted 07-15-2016 9:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 162 of 591 (787459)
07-14-2016 9:20 PM


Faith vs Evidence
One concept which stops many at EvC in their tracks from accepting GOD as real is the lack of evidence for a Creator and/or Jesus Christ:Alive Today.
Of the many Bible Studies and lessons which i have heard on this topic, it appears to me that GOD by design requires Faith rather than Evidence.
Faith vs Facts
Vines talks of the word Faith in this context:
quote:
FAITH
pistis NT:4102, primarily, "firm persuasion," a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, "to persuade"), is used in the NT always of "faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual."
The word is used of (a) trust, e. g., Rom 3:25 [see Note (4) below]; 1 Cor 2:5; 15:14,17; 2 Cor 1:24; Gal 3:23 [see Note (5) below]; Phil 1:25; 2:17; 1 Thess 3:2; 2 Thess 1:3; 3:2; (b) trust-worthiness, e. g., Matt 23:23; Rom 3:3, RV, "the faithfulness of God"; Gal 5:22 (RV, "faithfulness"); Titus 2:10, "fidelity"; (c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the "faith," Acts 6:7; 14:22; Gal 1:23; 3:25 [contrast 3:23, under (a)]; 6:10; 1:27; 3:10; 1:3,20 (and perhaps 2 Thess 3:2); (d) a ground for "faith," an assurance, Acts 17:31 (not as in KJV, marg., "offered faith"); (e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted "faith," 1 Tim 5:12.
The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e. g., 2 Thess 2:11-12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Cor 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Rom 4:17,20-21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY.(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
The story of Thomas illustrates this well.
John 20:24-29
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, We have seen the Lord!
But he said to them, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.
...in other words, Thomas needed evidence.
Notice that it was still a matter of his will.
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace be with you! 27 Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.
28 Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God!
29 Then Jesus told him, Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
In other words, stop being skeptics that require evidence. You may never get it...and if you are ultimately wrong, it won't be Gods fault for not providing you with evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2016 3:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 07-15-2016 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 163 of 591 (787468)
07-15-2016 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
07-14-2016 9:20 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence
Phat writes:
In other words, stop being skeptics that require evidence.
In other words stop being rational. Which is, according to you, is a god given gift.
You may never get it...and if you are ultimately wrong, it won't be Gods fault for not providing you with evidence.
Ok, I've become irrational, and god hasn't provided any clues, so now how do I choose the right god to believe in?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 07-14-2016 9:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 164 of 591 (787470)
07-15-2016 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by jaywill
04-15-2016 5:53 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
John Frame argues that there is no worldview that does not contain circular logic...
Again this worldview thing. I asked a question about what a worldview was in some threat and I got some amazing word-salad not meaning anything. Just a bunch of words thrown together.
I looked up John Frame and it seems as if he is or was some theologian somewhere. In the end it seems to me that anyone who mentions the word 'worldview' is religious.
I came to the conclusion that people writing about 'worldviews' all are religious and can't even imagine that some people are not religious and don't have 'worldviews'. They can't even imagine that people with no 'worldview' exist...
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 5:53 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 165 of 591 (787476)
07-15-2016 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
04-18-2016 6:38 PM


Re: Free Will
I realize that this is true. Allow me to use an analogy. Say that you had a child...one whom you were trying to discipline to stay close to you for his/her own good..
Well, if I were omniscient and had a child in 1980, a child I knew beforehand exactly when and where would bump into the same tree planted myself in 1980; and be a paraplegic for the rest of his or her life after that accident twenty or thirty or whatever years later; I would not have had the child or wouldn't have planted that tree there...
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 04-18-2016 6:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024