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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 166 of 591 (787480)
07-15-2016 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
07-14-2016 9:20 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence
Phat writes:
One concept which stops many at EvC in their tracks from accepting GOD as real is the lack of evidence for a Creator and/or Jesus Christ:Alive Today.
I could name a thing or two that I believe in without evidence. That isn't what stops me in my tracks from accepting the God that is marketed.
Suppose you see an ad for a car that goes from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds, sells for $1.30 and gets 900 miles to the gallon. But you know people who own them and they're always late for work and always blaming it on car trouble. You might be inclined to think that the ad is inaccurate.
Phat writes:
... it appears to me that GOD by design requires Faith rather than Evidence.
That's a convenient copout for situations where there is no evidence. Bigfoot hides from people because he wants them to accept him by faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 07-14-2016 9:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 167 of 591 (787482)
07-15-2016 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ringo
07-15-2016 12:01 PM


Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
quote:
One concept which stops many at EvC in their tracks from accepting GOD as real is the lack of evidence for a Creator and/or Jesus Christ:Alive Today.
But the Bible says the fruits will be the evidence of the Holy Spirit.
It seems that all the peaceful, pacifist, tolerant versions of Christianity died out. Where is the spirit today?
He is one example of a religion, that had it survived, could very well be seen as evidence "of the spirit"
This version of Christianity (which is fairly well related to the early Jewish Christians of James in Jerusalem).
quote:
In 228, in what is now Iraq, a boy of 12 had a vision. He saw the world divided into a great battle of good and evil, the sons of light caught within the flesh o f a wicked earth. The vision came to him again when he was 24 and he began preaching the word of his new faith. The boy was called Mani,
....
From its origins in the Middle East, Manichaeism reached out to the rest of the world.
....
They reached the furthest corners of the earth; Christian monks were praying in the high places of Tibet as early as the sixth century, where in future years local believers would carve crosses into rocks and write divinations to the god called Jesus Messiah. In Europe, Manichaeism was soon stamped out by a dominant Christianity,
....
In Asia, however, the followers of Mani competed in a much more diverse and competitive spiritual marketplace. Manichaeism’s great coup in Asia was the conversion of the Uyghur Khanate, a massive Turkic Central Asian power that spanned from the Caspian Sea to Mongolia. Tengri Bogu, the Uyghur Khan, was converted by Iranian Manichean preachers and declared it the official religion of his empire in 762. The official memorial of his conversion praises the religion for turning the Uyghur from blood sacrifices to a region of vegetarians, from a state which indulged in excessive killing to a nation that exhorts righteousness.
404 Page not found | The World of Chinese
Manicheans were a remnant of the Jerusalem church of James.
James has been blotted out for sure by Catholics and their hundreds of millions of "Protestant" imitators. Some leading scholars have noticed this overly obvious fact.
quote:
The Jesus Dynasty: The Hidden History of Jesus, His Royal Family, and the ...
By James D. Tabor
PREFACE
pp. 4-5
Shortly before he died, Jesus set up a provisional government with twelve regional officials, one over each of the twelve tribes or districts of Israel, and he left his brother James at the head of this fledgling government. James became the uncontested leader of the early Christian movement. This significant fact of history has been largely forgotten, or as likely, hidden. Properly understood,it changes everything we thought we knew about Jesus we though we knew about Jesus, his mission, and his message. Everyone has heard of Peter, Paul, and John - but the pivotal place of James, the beloved disciple and younger brother of Jesus, has been effectively blotted out from Christian memory.
Christianity today just isn't the same religion as the 1st century founders.
Why is James blotted out anyway?
It is simply because he held views on war, peace, meat, violence, nationalism, etc. that modern day Christians consider repugnant.
If the Spirit was real, then that wouldn't be the case.
You would at least have small pockets or a remnant (anyway).
None exist from what I have seen.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 07-15-2016 12:01 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 07-16-2016 1:57 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 591 (787502)
07-16-2016 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by LamarkNewAge
07-15-2016 12:45 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
But the Bible says the fruits will be the evidence of the Holy Spirit.
It seems that all the peaceful, pacifist, tolerant versions of Christianity died out. Where is the spirit today?
He is one example of a religion, that had it survived, could very well be seen as evidence "of the spirit"
I cannot believe you see no evidence of "fruits of the Spirit" today. Studying ancient manuscripts is not getting anyone closer to God. God is the Living Word...not a bunch of dried up scrolls. I have seen the fruit of the Spirit show itself through many people. It has happened through me, but not often enough. I blame myself for not trusting God enough. Without faith it is impossible to please God...God is not impressed with evidence...either common sense 20th century sociology nor ancient scribblings. God is impressed with those who believe that He is and that through us He operates in this world. I know the counter-arguments...I hear them often around here.
My belief hinges on faith. You may someday get an opportunity to see the subjective evidence by watching power come through a person of faith.
There are no ancient secrets that we need to learn. There is but the simple faith of a child..

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-15-2016 12:45 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 07-16-2016 9:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 07-16-2016 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 173 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-16-2016 12:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 591 (787510)
07-16-2016 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
07-16-2016 1:57 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
Phat writes:
My belief hinges on faith. You may someday get an opportunity to see the subjective evidence by watching power come through a person of faith.
And just what does the power look like? Is it different than the power of a Totoro? What does the power accomplish? Does it clothe the naked in different clothes, feed the hungry with different food, comfort the sorrowful with some special comfort, heal the sick with so special medicine, teach the children some unique knowledge, protect the helpless with some magic shield....?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 07-16-2016 1:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 170 of 591 (787511)
07-16-2016 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
07-16-2016 1:57 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
Phat writes:
Without faith it is impossible to please God...
Nonsense. The "fruits of the spirit" show up as often - if not more often - in people who don't have faith in God. The "fruits of the spirit" have a lot more to do with humanism than with religious faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 07-16-2016 1:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by GDR, posted 07-16-2016 12:24 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 171 of 591 (787512)
07-16-2016 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
07-16-2016 11:45 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
ringo writes:
Nonsense. The "fruits of the spirit" show up as often - if not more often - in people who don't have faith in God. The "fruits of the spirit" have a lot more to do with humanism than with religious faith.
That's fine but it is a matter of faith as to whether the "fruits of the spirit" or acts of unselfish love, is a result of the voice of God in our hearts or the result of a chance collection of mindless particles deciding that it's a good idea, regardless of our religious beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 07-16-2016 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-16-2016 12:30 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 172 of 591 (787513)
07-16-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by GDR
07-16-2016 12:24 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
GDR writes:
That's fine but it is a matter of faith as to whether the "fruits of the spirit" or acts of unselfish love, is a result of the voice of God in our hearts or the result of a chance collection of mindless particles deciding that it's a good idea, regardless of our religious beliefs.
So why do the mindless particles often produce more fruits than the voice of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by GDR, posted 07-16-2016 12:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 2:52 AM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 173 of 591 (787514)
07-16-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
07-16-2016 1:57 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
quote:
There are no ancient secrets that we need to learn. There is but the simple faith of a child..
Here is what I am getting at.
Let me start with a simple google search on Augustine and just war (the whole concept was from his responce to Manicheans) Ill show the quotes in the cache but no links excapt the main one
manichean pcifist augustine strict just war - Google Search
quote:
A World History of War Crimes: From Antiquity to the Present
isbn:1472505026 - Google Search
Michael Bryant - 2015 - ‎History
Manichean pacifism, a doctrine that still appealed to many Christians uneasy with the ... For Augustine, Joshua's war with the people of Ai was just because it was ... the Israelites were fully justified in destroying Ai insofar as they acted in strict
quote:
The Just War Tradition and the War on Terrorism - Campbellsville ...
http://www.campbellsville.edu/...Intyre_paper--just_war--for...
Campbellsville University
The just war tradition rejects both the pacifist's claim that all wars are unjust .... Augustine insisted that, not only must the cause of war be just, but that the intention of .... total war more than the just war conception of strictly limited war. However, there ... Christian an avenue out of the Manichean duality of pacifism and realism.
quote:
Just War Tradition: Then and Now | Karl Johnson - Academia.edu
(PDF) Just War Tradition: Then and Now | Karl Johnson - Academia.edu
Academia.edu
Augustine and Just War While the just war tradition did not begin with Augustine, ... In Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Augustine states, A great deal ..... end up with an overly strict just war theory or a weak pacifism that is no longer anti-war.
quote:
Jihad and Just War: A Comparative Analysis - Sound Ideas
soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context...awards
by N Romerijn-Stout - ‎2010 - ‎Related articles
about the Christian just war and the Islamic jihad pitted against each other. .... Answer to Faustus a Manichean (Contra FaustumManichaeum) in The ..... such, Augustine based his theories on violence and just war on a combination of Roman legal tradition, Roman and Judaeo-Christian thought, and early Christian pacifism.
quote:
Just War - Australian Catholic Social Justice Council
Page not found - Office for Social Justice...
the Church's earlier strict pacifist views after the conversion of the Emperor Constantine .... Augustine's thinking on just war underwent major changes. ..... Manichaean lens of moral absolutes, of Good versus Evil, with the demonizing of.
quote:
Library : The Pacifist and the Bible | Catholic Culture
Library : The Pacifist and the Bible | Catholic Culture
The Pacifist and the Bible This essay examines pacifism and its history. ... A just war under modern conditions is declared to be impossible. .... illustrated by extreme examples which are not strictly true as they stand, nor meant to be. ..... St. Augustine refutes at great length the absolute pacifism of the Manichean heretics who ...
Then from my main site.
quote:
But Manicheans rarely focused on evil, though their legends sometimes seem closer to Jack Kirby comic books than anything else, with their stories of heroic battles, incestuous copulation, and bizarre bad guys. In practice, the faith was a pacifist and ascetic one, sometimes to the point of extremes...
....
During its travels across Asia, Manichaeism seems to have picked up many Buddhist ideas, and to have shed some of the harsh dualism and Gnosticism that made the faith famous. But followers distinguished themselves from their religious rivals by their vegetarianism, far more strictly practiced than among Buddhists, their refusal to shave their heads like Buddhists, their veneration of Mani and Jesus, and the careful copying of their scriptures, to the extent that texts separated by four centuries and the whole of the Eurasian landmass, are virtually identical.
404 Page not found | The World of Chinese
Augustine was defending wholesale genocide and it seems to be (something like) the mark of what makes modern Christianity. Rumsfeld sent Bush electronic postcards featuring Psalms quotes that centered around martial themes and "God". Hillary Clinton says Psalms is "comforting".
Would the "Holy Spirit" agree with today's Christians that Psalms 151 was the God that incarnated Jesus?
Mani, Marcion, and the Jewish Christians seemed to hold a differing view.
Augustine flipped through the Old Testament to defend his view.
Mani surely used the Book of Enoch, but otherwise seemed to reject the Old Testament (the precedent was already set by the Elkesaite Jewish-Christian community his parents were in and then he was born into).
The Christians of the early centuries seemed perfectly willing to call the Old Testament God evil. Perhaps it was their proximity to Jewish Christian sects associated with James that gave them their inspiration and/or open mind toward the important issues, while modern Christians have nothing but the shackles of the Roman Catholics, Henry VIII, and Martin Luther as their inspiration.
Can I invoke the holy spirit and say that the absence of the strictly peaceful Manicheans (and others) today is evidence that the Holy Spirit is simply absent from reality? (Manichean is a substantive adjective today denoting harsh black and white views , so peacefulness is just plain "dirty" in modern culture)
Always was?
I'm just asking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 07-16-2016 1:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 174 of 591 (787519)
07-16-2016 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by LamarkNewAge
07-16-2016 12:55 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
Can I invoke the holy spirit and say that the absence of the strictly peaceful Manicheans (and others) today is evidence that the Holy Spirit is simply absent from reality?
You could use the same line of reasoning to say that the absence of the ancient Greeks spelled the end of democratic thinking in the world.
No, this reasoning is bad. Perhaps you should not judge all Christians by watching what fundies do. Those folks are actually a minority of all Christians.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-16-2016 12:55 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 175 of 591 (787542)
07-17-2016 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
07-16-2016 12:30 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
ringo writes:
So why do the mindless particles often produce more fruits than the voice of God?
Who is to say that is the case. It is a matter of faith no matter which one we choose. I believe that acts of unselfish love, or even more so sacrificial love, happen because we respond to that still small voice of God in our hearts. You choose to believe, (as I understand it), that they happen as a result of an evolutionary process that began with mindless particles that has eventually produced beings that are capable of making those choices. In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-16-2016 12:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2016 3:05 AM GDR has replied
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 07-17-2016 2:07 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 176 of 591 (787543)
07-17-2016 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by GDR
07-17-2016 2:52 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
GDR writes:
In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith.
You're trying to make an equivalence that doesn't exist. Please stop doing it - I know it means you feel better about your beliefs but it's an error.
It's not a matter of faith that I think evolution is the force that created empathy, it's a matter of evidence.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 2:52 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 10:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 177 of 591 (787548)
07-17-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Tangle
07-17-2016 3:05 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
Tangle writes:
You're trying to make an equivalence that doesn't exist. Please stop doing it - I know it means you feel better about your beliefs but it's an error.
C'mon, do you really think that saying that makes me feel better about my beliefs. It has absolutely no impact on how I feel about my beliefs.
Tangle writes:
It's not a matter of faith that I think evolution is the force that created empathy, it's a matter of evidence.
What you call evidence is simply a record of how empathy has evolved in the world. Mind you, the evidence as far as I can see only applies when there is some form of link in the gene pool. Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them.
I'm fine with the idea that it has evolved over time, but whether it simply evolved from non intelligent root causes or an intelligent one is a matter of belief that can't be proven in either case. So, it is a matter of faith in what it is that we believe.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2016 3:05 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2016 11:09 AM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 178 of 591 (787549)
07-17-2016 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by GDR
07-17-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
GDR writes:
C'mon, do you really think that saying that makes me feel better about my beliefs. It has absolutely no impact on how I feel about my beliefs.
Ok, for whatever reason you're doing it, stop it! It's not true.
People do not believe or have faith in biological processes.
What you call evidence is simply a record of how empathy has evolved in the world.
Yeh, that is what we call evidence.
Mind you, the evidence as far as I can see only applies when there is some form of link in the gene pool.
Not true.
Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them.
No there isn't - it's exactly the same thing.
I'm fine with the idea that it has evolved over time,
Then what on earth are you objecting too?
but whether it simply evolved from non intelligent root causes or an intelligent one is a matter of belief that can't be proven in either case. So, it is a matter of faith in what it is that we believe.
This is utterly irrelevant. If you accept that empathy evolved exactly like every other emotion, there's nothing left to argue about - we're an evolved species like everything else around us, after that you can believe what you like about it. But you can't say that your belief in god whispering in your ear is the equivalent of science's understanding of a biological process.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 10:39 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 07-18-2016 4:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 591 (787554)
07-17-2016 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by GDR
07-17-2016 2:52 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
GDR writes:
I believe that acts of unselfish love, or even more so sacrificial love, happen because we respond to that still small voice of God in our hearts. You choose to believe, (as I understand it), that they happen as a result of an evolutionary process that began with mindless particles that has eventually produced beings that are capable of making those choices. In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith.
The fact of evolution is not a matter of faith. We know that social conscience can be a result of evolutionary processes. There is no room for faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 2:52 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 180 of 591 (787590)
07-18-2016 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Tangle
07-17-2016 11:09 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
Tangle writes:
People do not believe or have faith in biological processes.
Sure. The question I'm debating is why that evolutionary process came into existence.
GDR writes:
Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them.
Tangle writes:
No there isn't - it's exactly the same thing.
Wrong. There is a biog difference between reading about people suffering in Africa and feeling sorry for them as opposed to feeling sorry for them and opening up your wallet and doing something about it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 07-17-2016 11:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 07-18-2016 5:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
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