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Author | Topic: Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
LNA writes:
Why do you characterize it as a "conservative" source? (Their notes don't seem very "conservative" to me.). Why do you only look at this one source, and refuse to look at other translations and sources?
What is wrong with this conservative source? I suggest looking at a number of good, modern translations (NASB, NIV, ESV, NET, HCSB, etc). Most of these can be found at BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.; the NET Bible with notes can be found at Matthew 1 | NET Bible."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Catholic Bishops have been packed packed packed with conservatives since John Paul II was Pope (the one from around 1980 to around 2005 or 2006), and Ratzinger was even more conservative. Even the 20 years (or so) of liberal Popes from the late 1950s to the late 1970s saw not so liberal Bishops appointed by them. Like John Paul II. Catholics have always been one of the conservative churches anyway.
quote: I was attacked by a fundamentalist earlier for using the NIV for Is. 27 and the Leviathan verse. Anyway, I do use multiple translations, but I don't "translation shop".
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The ultra right-wing Andrew Breitbart sees "liberalism" in everything not 100% right wing. He would attack callers on C-SPAN who were anti-war yet called in on the Republican line. He refused to consider any anti-war person a Republican and wouldn't respond to their comments to discredit them. Callers were shouting in protest that they were true Republicans. "liberal" "liberal" "liberal" is the mantra that site levels at anybody to the left of Atilla the Hun.
quote: Then
quote: On theological issues, the Catholic Bishops are conservative. The political stances are more complicated, but the conservative theology drives their positions on many issues. My source was conservative in every sense of the word.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
LNA writes:
"Conservatism" vs "liberalism" is not a simple question. Catholics are very conservative in some areas, but liberal in others.
Catholic Bishops have been packed packed packed with conservatives since John Paul II was Pope (the one from around 1980 to around 2005 or 2006), and Ratzinger was even more conservative. Even the 20 years (or so) of liberal Popes from the late 1950s to the late 1970s saw not so liberal Bishops appointed by them. Like John Paul II. Catholics have always been one of the conservative churches anyway.
I was attacked by a fundamentalist earlier for using the NIV for Is. 27 and the Leviathan verse.
Yes, some fundamentalists think that the KJV is best, and that anything else is inferior. They won't be any happier with your use of a Catholic translation than the NIV. (Most Protestants are very skeptical of Catholic translations and interpretations. The Catholic Church has elevated "tradition" to have an equal authority to Scripture, so they allow their tradition to color their interpretation of Scripture.)
Anyway, I do use multiple translations, but I don't "translation shop".
I'm not at all suggesting that you "translation shop". I'm suggesting that you try to understand what the text is really saying. The best way to do this is to read it in the original language (Hebrew, not KJV!). But for those who don't read Hebrew, the second best is to read the text in multiple translations. This is NOT for the purpose of "translation shopping" to pick the one that you like best; it is more for "translation averaging" and for getting an idea of the possible range of meanings of the original text."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Catholics have always been one of the conservative churches anyway. With regard to understanding how fundamentalists view the Bible, Catholics are often not a great source. In particular, with regards to things involving a literal interpretation of evolution and the origin of the universe, Catholics are far more mainstream in their beliefs. Is that really a truth that you want to dispute? Catholics also differ from fundamentalists on small things related to salvation as well. In fact, if you want to use Catholics as an example of how fundamentalists doctrine works, you've got a lot of ground work to lay. I doubt that it would even be worthwhile to do that work. Whether or not Catholics are more politically liberal than fundamentalists is quite another question, but one that is not germane to this discussion. What is the case is that Catholics are not fundamentalists. There are parts of the Bible that the interpret far more literally than protestants and parts on which they are simply not literalists in any fashion. In fact Catholics have extra books in their Bible. Beyond that many fundamentalists rail against the Catholic Church, with some going so far as to consider the Pope the anti-Christ. Surely you know this already?
I was attacked by a fundamentalist earlier for using the NIV for Is. 27 and the Leviathan verse. Duh! Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But for those who don't read Hebrew, the second best is to read the text in multiple translations. This is NOT for the purpose of "translation shopping" to pick the one that you like best; it is more for "translation averaging" and for getting an idea of the possible range of meanings of the original text. I would do this for the purpose of debates like this one, but I would not recommend this as a general practice for Christians. Some translations are just wrong. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Can we agree that this is a liberal source? With liberal references in his scholarship links?
Jesus Never Existed, After All | HuffPost Latest News Now the site is politically liberal. The article is from a historically liberal person with regards to New Testament scholarship. But the site isn't exactly liberal in the way the article author is on historical and New Testament issues. It is complicated. I understand it all.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Parts of Bible may have been written earlier than expected, archaeologists say | The Bible | The Guardian
Parts of Bible may have been written earlier than expected, archaeologists say Using handwriting analysis technology, team found that a famous hoard of ancient Hebrew inscriptions were written by at least six different authors This would support the idea that the Hebrew Bible predated the Babylonian Exile. Is the Guardian "conservative" now? Would fundamentalists agree with The Guardian over this site below (another of which has an author that wants to deny the existence of Jesus)? Did Jesus really exist? - Macleans.ca Does that make the Guardian "conservative" John Dominic Crossan talked about the irony that he, once regarded as a "liberal", is now a "moderate", with all those around who make the case that Jesus never existed. Bart Ehrman, recently, made the case that Jesus existed and is widely referenced by fundamentalists. See this reference for an example
quote: I expected this fundi site below to reference Ehrman but it appears not to. I'm sure I could find a reference if I searched hard enough. Sorry! - Deseret News Ehrman gets letters from fundi scholars saying things like, "you are doing our dirty work for us" when he argues forcefully for the evidence of existence for Jesus.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Our disagreement with Psalms 49 and 73 is one of interpretation. The disagreement over Job 26:12-13 is the one where the translation of all modern scholars is being denied by some (not you though?) I have now shown that both the NRSV and Catholic Bishops support the standard modern translation of Job 26. (which fits in with the Septuagint of 200 BCE). Getting the "conservatives" to admit that Genesis 1 and the textual description there supports the notion of a universe of water held back by a firmament (whether an actual dome or atmospheric barrier to the waters above is another issue) is another issue. But, lets look at the language and what "heavens" (Hebrew shamayim can be considered plural or singular as it has a plural ending) means. It is the word in Genesis 1. And God said:'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters.' waters is mayim in Hebrew. A plural ending. water or waters can be the translation. Here will be links from http://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/...loads/403/jbq_403_mayim.pdf
quote:.... The article goes on to explain that it makes sense if one sees the division of the waters by a firmament INTO TWO PARTS as the reason for the plural ending for the word that can be used as a singular type of word "water". A very rare situation.
quote: It says Shamu is the Akkadian word for heavens. Sha means "one of" in Akkadian mu is the word for water in Akkadian (may plus the im plural ending makes mayim in Hebrew) Yom is the Hebrew word for day(and the word yom is also meaning "storm" in Job) and it is umma in Sumerian. Both "day" and "storm" were umma before becoming yom in Hebrew. I think day is um(U) in Akkadian but Im not sure. The strange case of the plural Hebrew word of "water" and "heaven" could be explained in this way. mayim "water" or "waters" shamayim "heaven" or "heavens" The possibility further backs up the plain reading of the text which has water above and water below the firmament. It works according to the rules of Semitic languages and transmigration of words. It fits in with the concepts the people held. It fits scripture. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I did a google search to see if there was any archaeological artwork. I was hoping to find Jewish artwork.
Google I found what might be a Talmud quote in a free journal article.
quote: Its a long article that is flipping slowly. There is Classical Christian commentary that is quoted. Big Christian players too. These ancient comments should not be ignored. But they seem to be.
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
Interesting, I know about Rahab , the Lords harlot, saved and forgiven.. but never focused in on your verses.... Job Yes, but Rahab..... in the waters NO....
I like solving mysteries and so let me think and pray about it.. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK. .
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
First, worldly Jews, unebelieving Jews like worldly Christians and unbelieveing Christians can deem Job and Gensis as myths, but logical rational scientific real Christians and real Jews would not.
Its literal and means what it says when taken together with all other scriptures and science and math, etc etc... So clean up your fragments in your mind and start a fresh.. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK. .
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
Let me first answer you Land.. before the others come and demand answers for their questions... so as to stop discussions.
********************** Job 26:1 But Job answered and said,Job 26:2 How hast thou helped [him that is] without power? [how] savest thou the arm [that hath] no strength? Job 26:3 How hast thou counselled [him that hath] no wisdom? and [how] hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is? Job 26:4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee? Job 26:5 Dead [things] are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof. Job 26:6 Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing. Job 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them. Job 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, [and] spreadeth his cloud upon it. Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. Job 26:12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Job 26:14 Lo, these [are] parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand? ******************************** So do note first of all, that the Earth is hung upon nothing.... it is a planet and is a circle or sphere as mentioned elsewhere in the Old Testament. And note how Job blasts the heathen and those in hell etc.... as they have no covering... Note, that in this same verse, there is an empty space in the north... this being confirmed by astronomers ..... in our time, but lets move on... to the topic more specifically. Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Crooked serpent, is that what was translated as Rahab in new translations. KJV says crooked serpent and usually this is the best and most consistent translation, rather than Rahab. Lets look into this ? Crooked serpent makes sense, because leviathon was a sea serpent and these sea serpents survived the world wide flood... and leviathon is talked about throughout Job. But Ill have to refresh my memory and do more research and figure out this mystery. Its also beneficial for evolutionists who should be aware of the bible references to stars, and to sea monsters IE Large reptiles in the water or seas, and on land behemoths as again mentioned in Job. Jobs dating is after Creation and not before in some wierd evolutionary eon or era or age. He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK. .
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
Landmark, to get away from the various translations, leading to semantic differences, I shall stick to the tried and proven KJV....only.
Rahab, which I had never read before in Job, seems to be some sort of translation of some version concerning the serpent, or monster or sea reptile, that Job refers to... rather confusing, using the Name Rahab for a sea reptile complicating the great story and truth and true history of Rahab the harlot who helped the faithful Jews to conquer Jericho.. SEE WallsofJericho So there be our first answer.... poor translation, but lets stick to the meaning of the word.... crooked serpent or sea reptile.... so we get away from the semantics that some seminarians or cemetarians get into to justify their semantic studies. and a wasting away of their lifes.. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK. .
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Davidjay  Suspended Member (Idle past 2351 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined: |
The crooked serpent of Job 26 is referenced many times by Job in His BOOK of TRUTH.
Great read for anyone, great moral, great TRUTHS. SEE Google search as levaithon is the crooked serpent mentioned elsewhere leviathan bible verse - Google Search Ok study these websites and read your KJV and reply with comments etc.. Get back to me on this before others try and interuprt this discussion. Thanks Yours Truly David Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK. .
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