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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: I should point out that most secular historians seem to consider any mention of food prohibitions as "cultic" or "ceremonial" and the edited text (taking out the food prohibitions) as "moral. P45 is the edited text. (it was used by the western church including a few prominent 2nd century apologists) One can find quite quite a lot of google books and pdfs covering the subject on the first page of google using a general web search Google You will see p45 and the western quotations of Acts 15:20, 15:29, 21:25 described as being changed into "moral laws" as opposed to the King James Greek text being "ceremonial". It is a clear bias. Get used to it. Here is what really is a ceremonial law example
quote: Another
quote: To eat pork or not is a moral law. Not ceremonial of cultic or ritual law. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
To eat pork or not is a moral law. Not any more. That law was for a particular people in a particular time. I would think that moral laws, in contrast, never change. We may be in an age of grace, for example, yet "thou shalt not kill" is still a moral law as well as a legal one. Pork, in contrast is unimportant. Not ceremonial of cultic or ritual law.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Then why was James (the brother of Jesus) a vegetarian according to every early source? (I don't think Acts 15:20, 15:29, 21:25 indicates vegetarianism though somebody reading it - without any other informations - might think it says such.)
The biblical text of Paul offers fairly strong evidence that he was a vegetarian. The Egyptians, Hittites, and especially the Canaanites didn't eat pork. Neither did the Philistines after 1000 B.C.E. Zoroaster didn't consider animal suffering to be unimportant. Neither did the Hindus. Or the Navajo. (didn't eat pork) Or the Zulu. (didn't eat pork) Most Christians (if one includes gnostics as "Christians") were vegetarian. Like all of the Jewish Christians. Many of the famous Orthodox Christians were too. A fundamentalist should see Jesus as performing magic tricks to create fake fish to eat (not real meat). The destruction of the Temple was interpreted as a New Age, and vegetarianism was the rule among Jewish Christians. Paul said Christians should become vegetarian as they increasingly become observed by others (eat it if you hide the fact of what you are eating from vegetarians, infact you can't even know what some food is in order to be able to eat it). The "market" of Paul's time can't be private anymore. There are worldwide commodity markets and statistics and everybody knows who is eating what A fundamentalist should see Jesus and/or God as seeing this Temple destruction situation through.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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LamarkNewAge writes: I still don't understand why an "incarnated son" or "God incarnate" Messiah might have been unknown when there is supposedly all these "fulfilled prophecies". Something just isn't adding up here. Why the ignorance of such things in 55 A.D.? The Israelites were still wanting a god that would do what they wanted. They wanted power in the here and now, and even though they were in the promised land they were still under Roman rule and still in exile. Jesus' message was not about gaining military power but about influencing the enemy with kindness, truth and love. That sold then just about as well as it does today. Further, the message became that God was not just a God for the Jews but for the whole world. It wasn't a message that everyone wanted to hear. Many believed but many didn't.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
A fundamentalist should see Jesus as performing magic tricks to create fake fish to eat (not real meat). Except that the text talks about collecting the fish from folks before feeding the multitude. Apparently somebody was eating fish. Jesus performed a miracle in which cast nets came up brimming full of fish. (Luke 5:7, John 21:6) Some of the disciples were fishermen by trade. I don't think the fake fish guess holds up all that well. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 604 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
The Messiah was to bring in the earthly kingdom of God. He came as a humble servant the first time. There are prophecies concerning the Messiah that do not discuss the warrior king aspect. He fulfills those prophecies. God. did not specify a time when he would assume the warrior king aspect. There is still the rest of time for that to. occur. God said he himself would take away the sins of the world. Since Jesus was God, the first advent was committed to fulfilling that prophecy.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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foreveryoung writes: The Messiah was to bring in the earthly kingdom of God. He came as a humble servant the first time. There are prophecies concerning the Messiah that do not discuss the warrior king aspect. He fulfills those prophecies. God. did not specify a time when he would assume the warrior king aspect. There is still the rest of time for that to. occur. God said he himself would take away the sins of the world. Since Jesus was God, the first advent was committed to fulfilling that prophecy. So far whenever we have actually looked at those prophecies in context the result has been that Jesus did not fulfill any of them except a few examples of "self-fulfilling staged events"; carny tricks. However if you think there are such prophecies please start yet another thread on the subject and we will once again go through the exercise. Yes, it is possible to take passage out of context and quote-mine and that is a common practice but only works with those who willfully ignore what is actually written in context. As I have said, if Jesus ever becomes the Warrior Prince successfully and establishes a Jewish Kingdom that rules all, then he would be the Messiah. But until that happens he is just a failed Messiah. But there is also no evidence that Jesus took away the sins of the world. True, the early marketeers of Christianity did try to redefine what the Jewish Messiah would be but they failed. They did create a new definition of what they thought a Messiah would be that was a different set of characteristics than those held by the Hebrews, but that still would not make Jesus the Jewish Messiah. AbE: It also seems that most folk claiming to be Bible Christians or Evangelical Christians do not even believe that Jesus took away the sins of the world, rather they seem to believe Jesus took away "THEIR" sins. That has always seemed kinda funny to me. Edited by jar, : see AbE:My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Jesus probably saw himself as being what you say he was. James and Paul (FOR SURE) sure did see Jesus as an anti-nationalistic, peaceful, and loving fulfillment of the Old Testament. I'll even give an example proving James did indeed see things like you say we should. But the problem is that the inter-testamental literature doesn't seem to back up your claim that the Old Testament Messiah predictions were interpreted as such. Here is James in Acts 15
quote: That is the most interesting quote in the entire Bible IMO. Look at the difference between the Septuagint and the Massorah Old Testament text of Amos 9:11-12
quote: quote:( Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation is source of quotes) The Septuagint backs up your claim that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. The Massorah contradicts your claims. Call that a split decision. But there is still the much larger difficulty in matching the incarnate (son of) God concept with the Old Testament verses. The supreme "I am" concept of a single God taking many forms (including an "eternal" (?) Holy Spirit) was unknown by 12 individuals even in 55-57 AD.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I said:
quote: The response was:
quote: Turning fish into a much larger amount of fish "left over" after the meal was done could very well be seen an making up entirely new and totally different fish. This is lab-grown and "3-D printed" fish to an entirely new level. The alcohol that was made from water, during a feast, might not have included the initial elements. The fish could have all been fake. Fundamentalists always want a "harmony" of scripture with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church (and the billion person strong "Protestant" amen squad that simply are copy cats of the Catholic traditions and teachings), but why not look for a harmony that matches up with the spirit of the teachings and interpretations of the Jewish Christian branch of James, the Ebionites, and the Elkesaites which was equally strong for centuries after the Catholics came to be around 80-100 AD? Why? Why not?
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
LNA writes: Personally I find very little credibility nor any sort of "spirit" of the teachings through ancient scribblings...apart from the ones that I believe in. Fundamentalists always want a "harmony" of scripture with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church (and the billion person strong "Protestant" amen squad that simply are copy cats of the Catholic traditions and teachings), but why not look for a harmony that matches up with the spirit of the teachings and interpretations of the Jewish Christian branch of James, the Ebionites, and the Elkesaites which was equally strong for centuries after the Catholics came to be around 80-100 AD? It has been said that truth is not always popular. You seem to find solace in internet quotes defending the veracity of ancient religions. I find that irrelevant in 2016. My critics would agree with you that the protestant "amen" squad simply loves harmony and popular teachings that itching ears desire to hear.The educated secular mind dismisses modern teachings as little more than feelgood "woo". I have personally seen and witnessed some major changes in people who believe. Granted, 75% are of the amen squad and have little more than an emotional catharsis...but the truth is not only out there but He can live in here (in you) if you allow it. But apparently you have more faith in ancient scribblings and long dead commentators of the same. To me, that stuff is boring and uninspiring.the educated secular mind dismisses as "woo". Getting back to "pork"...I will say that pork is much more sanitary today than it was back in the day...though many of my friends still refuse to eat it. In my opinion, this should be a preference and not some dietary rule. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
LamrkNewAge writes: The Septuagint backs up your claim that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. The Massorah contradicts your claims. Call that a split decision. It is interesting to discuss the ways in which Jesus fulfilled the messianic mission but in the final analysis it isn't really about how we interpret the texts. What is important is God's reaction to the life and message of Jesus. God confirmed and vindicated Jesus by resurrecting Him. If God hadn't resurrected Jesus then there is no reason to think that any of His followers, (or later on Paul for that matter), would have considered Him any more than just another failed messiah, and we wouldn't be having this discussion today.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Acts 15 was my last quote. James the Just. James the brother of Jesus. James the lesser.
quote: Is that the Chinese history website I quoted about the Mani-founded branch of Jewish gnostic Christianity? It was a Chinese history site lol. That was a small part of the site. The kind words about Mani and his followers were in the context of critical commentary on Chinese religious tolerance. The point was that the typical thing people hear is that the Chinese have been historically tolerant of different religions but the site lamented the fact that it is only true relative to Europe. Romans 8:9 says you have to have the spirit of Christ to be a true follower. I offered a concession to you that some were genuine. I showed an example of the very large gnostic sect founded by Mani (but based on 1st centry Jewish Christianity).
quote: There are over 1.5 billion followers of the Hindu religion (including the Buddah branch). The concept of karma automatically makes most vegetarian. Paul talked about sins against conscience in Romans 14-15. Karma has to do with killing living creatures. Killing conscious creatures. Parasites have little or nothing to do with it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
There's little point in a prophecy that's "fulfilled" in an unexpected way. I've predicted that Donald Trump will win the US Presidency; if he doesn't, I can always say it was a "moral" victory - but of course it will really mean that I was wrong.
He fulfilled the messianic requirements, but not in the way the majority of Israelites expected.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 604 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
They are wrong. Jesus did take away the sins of the world.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Not all men are saved however. They have to reconcile with God. All they have to do is accept with Jesus did on their behalf. If they refuse, God's taking away all sins of the world does no good.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: There's little point in a prophecy that's "fulfilled" in an unexpected way. I've predicted that Donald Trump will win the US Presidency; if he doesn't, I can always say it was a "moral" victory - but of course it will really mean that I was wrong. Once again though it all comes back to the resurrection. If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding. If the resurrection is not true then the whole point is moot anyway. As I said in my other reply if Jesus wasn't resurrected then He would simply have been another failed messiah and His followers would simply have disappeared back to their fishing etc. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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