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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 256 of 716 (788273)
07-28-2016 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 1:00 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
LamarkNewAge writes:
I think the bulk of the evidence goes against your sentence.
If you want to discuss vegetarianism, start a thread. Frankly, I don't think we need to go past Genesis 4 but feel free to knock yourself out - in the appropriate thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 1:00 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 2:35 PM ringo has replied
 Message 259 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 2:58 PM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 257 of 716 (788275)
07-28-2016 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
07-28-2016 2:19 PM


Yet another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
quote:
If you want to discuss vegetarianism, start a thread. Frankly, I don't think we need to go past Genesis 4 but feel free to knock yourself out - in the appropriate thread.
How to respond to this?
quote:
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold
Are but a cheat contrived by men of old,
Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust
And died in basenessand their law is dust.
Al-Ma'arri
Genesis 9 is when there was the allowance for food btw. And the animal sacrifices were first mentioned in chapter 12 and the Abrahamic Covenant which was based on nationalism and racial distinctions which were then delineated in Genesis 17 with circumcision as the feature.
See Acts 10-15 for the ending of such. It is related to the topic btw. Sorry you don't see that.
Now, to get a little off topic.
I found out about Al-Ma'arra while searching the web btw.
quote:
End-Timers: Three Thousand Years of Waiting for Judgment Day: Three Thousand ...
By Martin Ballard
p.58
His sayings still find a place in humanist collections.
"They all err -
Moslems, Christians, Jews and Magians (Zoroastrians)
...One man intelligent without religion
and one religious without intellect."
End-Timers: Three Thousand Years of Waiting for Judgment Day: Three Thousand ... - Martin Ballard - Google Books
Interesting as he comments on a ton of issues. (I changed the format of the book quote, but kept text the same)
Error 404 - Not Found
But this part (not the rest) is off topic.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 2:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 2:54 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 258 of 716 (788276)
07-28-2016 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 2:35 PM


Re: Yet another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
LamarkNewAge writes:
How to respond to this?
I respod by repeating: Take it to an appropriate thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 2:35 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 3:24 PM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 259 of 716 (788277)
07-28-2016 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
07-28-2016 2:19 PM


Vegetarian issue "nonsense", "off-topic"?
Sacrifices are an issue.
quote:
Matthew 9
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 12
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 2:23 says,"And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."
There was a 1st century Gospel of Matthew by a group of this name. It seems to be the same one used by the Ebionites. They were vegetarians. They considered the end of sacrifices to men the end of killing animals for any reason.
quote:
This Ebionite/Nazarene movement was made up of mostly Jewish followers of John the Baptizer and later Jesus, who were concentrated in Palestine and surrounding regions and led by James the Just (the oldest brother of Jesus), and flourished between the years 30-80 C.E.
Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus – TaborBlog
James was a vegetarian ALREADY IN 62 A.D.according to all the evidence, and the Ebionites said that the end of sacrifices were the end of the killing. They were already vegetarians because James died 62 A.D. according to Josephus. Then the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
It is on topic.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 2:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 3:26 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 716 (788279)
07-28-2016 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 1:08 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo?
LK writes:
The Temple, Passover, and sacrifices aren't important then?
If you look very closely you will perhaps notice that Temple, Passover, and sacrifices as well as vegetarianism all all different words and none of them related to the topic. Utter nonsense tossed to see what sticks is irrelevant.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 1:08 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 3:27 PM jar has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 261 of 716 (788280)
07-28-2016 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by ringo
07-28-2016 2:54 PM


"Take it to an appropriate thread."
This issue is important.
We need evidence that this group existed in the first century so we can see how old the traditions are (at the latest).
James Tabor says that the Nazareans are the same thing as the Ebionites.
Bart Ehrman considers the 2 groups related but not quite the same.
quote:
he New testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings (3rd edition),
by Bart Ehrman
p.197
The Gospel of the Nazareans. ....written in Aramaic... It may have been produced in Palestine near the end of the first century, that is, about the time of the gospel of John. The church fathers who refer to it sometimes claim that it was an Aramaic translation of the Gospel according to Matthew, minus the first two chapters
There is a divided opinion as to whether the Gospel of the Ebionites is from a different group.
There is very strong evidence that this group existed in the first century because there was an Elkesaite offshoot which existed in the 3rd year of a Roman Emperor that ruled from 98 to 117 A.D.
quote:
The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions
John Bowker (ed.)
Oxford University Press; 1st edition (May 8, 1997)
p.311
Elkesaites. A Jewish Christian group which arose c. 100 CE in the country east of the Jordan, having affinities with the *Ebionites
The Elkesaite group existed in Mesopotamia (Mani was born in 216 A.D. in Mesopotamia and his parents were members of this group). All these groups (Ebionites, Narareans, Elkesaites , Manicheans) were vegetarian as were Matthew and James according to 2nd century sources.
The critics who question that Elkesaites existed in exactly 100 A.D. have to nit-pick and dispute if the religion started in Palestine as the tradition claimed. They try to place the start more toward the end of Trajan's reign (i.e. about 116 or 117 A.D.) as opposed to the 3rd year. There is no reason to doubt the tradition. Elkesai would have picked an even earlier date than 100 A.D. if he was trying to make himself seem more venerable and making dates up. There isn't much room for the critics to move dates.
The Elkesaite evidence locks in the fact that the Ebionites existed in the first century. Their views mirrored James' views. Their views matched the early descriptions of James being vegetarian.
The followers of James (the Jerusalem church) fled to Pella in trans-Jordan during the troubles (with Romans, but James was killed by the Jews as they threw him from the Temple Mount in 62 A.D. according to Josephus) in the 60s. Elkesai had his "revelation" in 100 A.D. and started his new religion.
It all fits with all the early traditions. Preserved by hostile Catholics and Greek Orthodox mainly.
Very important when it comes to learning where Jesus was coming from in his views on there RELEVANT issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 2:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 07-29-2016 11:43 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 262 of 716 (788281)
07-28-2016 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 2:58 PM


Re: Vegetarian issue "nonsense", "off-topic"?
LamarkNewAge writes:
James was a vegetarian ALREADY IN 62 A.D.according to all the evidence....
You're looking at extra-Biblical evidence. This is the Bible Study forum.
Whatever you might have to say about vegetarianism, you're only hurting your own case by dragging it into a topic where it doesn't belong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 2:58 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 263 of 716 (788282)
07-28-2016 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
07-28-2016 3:14 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo (no jar!)?
quote:
If you look very closely you will perhaps notice that Temple, Passover, and sacrifices as well as vegetarianism all all different words and none of them related to the topic. Utter nonsense tossed to see what sticks is irrelevant.
The Temple was a messianic issue. (Jesus said he was the Temple and Messiah)
With the Temple comes the Passover. (Jesus said he was the Passover and Temple)
With the Passover comes sacrifices. (Jesus said he was the Passover sacrifice)
The vegetarian issues comes in because it is a mark of those closest to him and his 1st century followers (like James who he appointed leader of the church).
Early first century that is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 07-28-2016 3:14 PM jar has not replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 264 of 716 (788283)
07-28-2016 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 3:27 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo (no jar!)?
LamarkNewAge writes:
The Temple was a messianic issue.
That doesn't mean that every subject you can vaguely connect with the Temple is a messianic issue. I'll be happy to discuss vegetarianism with you IN THE APPROPRIATE THREAD. In this thread, either DROP IT or go bother somebody else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 3:27 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 265 of 716 (788284)
07-28-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ringo
07-28-2016 3:37 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo (no jar!)?
Preferably the latter.
The issue really comes down to the fact that Christianity became a different religion than Judaism with different dogma, different customs, different practices and marketed to a different audience.
Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish Messianic Prophecies because while Jesus was a Jew his followers created a new religion and became not Jews.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 264 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 3:37 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 6:04 PM jar has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 266 of 716 (788287)
07-28-2016 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
07-28-2016 3:54 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo (no jar!)?
quote:
The issue really comes down to the fact that Christianity became a different religion than Judaism with different dogma, different customs, different practices and marketed to a different audience.
Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish Messianic Prophecies because while Jesus was a Jew his followers created a new religion and became not Jews.
The issue of sacrifices is complicated by the fact that the Essenes seem to have not disliked sacrifices. They seem to have performed sacrifices, so they can't be seen as the source for the anti-sacrificial views of Christians. Was it simply the Temple destruction? Paul already was against sacrifices and Jesus might have very well predicted the Temple destruction. He already considered himself the Passover sacrifice.
Los Angeles Review of Books
JSTOR: Access Check (only first page can be read but it is instructive when read with above link)
Google
My issue is to try to figure out exactly what Jesus taught (so we can trace the source of his teachings if there indeed were any). One very important clue might be to find out what James taught. Matthew (more the person, but the later Gospel bearing his name is an important issue) is important because of the prominent place he holds among Jewish Christians.
The 1969 discovery (1975-82 publishing) of the COLOGNE MANI CODEX has become of monumentally important to me because of what it showed about the Elkesaites.
Thank God the Encyclopedia Iranica has been offered for free online. How ignorant we would be without its precious modern scholarship.
COLOGNE MANI CODEX — Encyclopaedia Iranica
It had a hyper-link to a separate article on Elchesai
ALCHASAI — Encyclopaedia Iranica
This was fundamentally important as it combined with existing sources on the Elkesaites to inform us a fair ways on them.The Kitāb al-Fihrist, "an Index of the books of all nations", was a 10th century work which talked about the vegetarianism of the Elchesai sect. The 4th century Epiphanius talked about how he taught that Jesus had multiple incarnations (important if one attempts to figure out the thought being responded to in first chapters of the polemical Gospel of John and the epistle of the Hebrews) and they were vegetarians. There were other sources.
Forbidden
Here is an 1880 work on the Elkesaites (which should have received explosive attention because of the Manichean Codex discovered).
quote:
Elkesaites a sect of Jewish Christians, which sprang up in the 2d century.
....
Uhlhorn thinks that it [book of Elchesai]must have originated soon after the beginning of the second century, as it served as the basis of the doctrinal system of the Clementine Homilies, which were nearly completed about A.D. 150.
....
he best account of the standard book of the Elkesaites is to be found in the Philosophoumena, and its main points are confirmed by the statements of Origen ....The Jewish element appears in the obligatory character of the law, and in circumcision. They rejected, however, sacrifices, and also several parts of the Old and New Testaments (of the latter, the Pauline epistles) ....hey taught a repeated, continuous incarnation of Christ, although his birth of a virgin seems to have been retained. The Lord's Supper was celebrated with bread and salt; the eating of meat was forbidden;
....
The Clementine Homilies contain a further development of Elkesaite doctrines, with a stronger predominance of the Christian element. At the time of the emperor Constantius, Epiphanius found Elkesaites to the east of the Dead Sea, in Nabathaea, Ituraea, and Moabitis
....
From the circumstance that in Epiphanius Elxai appears among nearly all parties of Jewish Christians, Uhlhorn infers that the Elkesaites were not so much a separate sect as a school among all sects of Jewish Christians.
Elkesaites - Biblical Cyclopedia
A recent article.
quote:
We may count the Pseudo-Clementine writings as a fourth source of information concerning the books of Elkesai.
....
The book is evidently of Jewish origin
....
The book ordered compliance with ordinances of the Jewish law, but condemned the rite of sacrifice, so involving the rejection of parts of O.T., and of the eating of flesh.
....
The formula of baptism runs, In the name of the Most High God and of His Son, the Great King; but this Great King is not exclusively identified with Jesus of Nazareth, for He appeared in the world in successive incarnations, Adam being the first. The book agreed with the Clementines in complete rejection of St. Paul.
Henry Wace: Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
The book of Elchesai was produced 100 A.D. and that actually predates gnosticism which started to begin 100-150 A.D. and became more fully formed around 150 A.D. These views existed at the same time at New Testament books were being written. It seems to be a specific group that started in Trans-Jordan in 100 A.D.
The important Gospel of Thomas states that Jesus made James the leader of the church.
James had followers in Jerusalem. Josephus records the death of James in 62 A.D. in Jerusalem.
quote:
Eusebius records that Clement of Alexandria wrote that Peter, James, and John chose James the Just as bishop of Jerusalem, but Eusebius also subjects James to the authority of all the apostles.[66]
....
According to Eusebius, after the death of James the Jerusalem church fled to Pella, Jordan[72] to escape the siege of the future Emperor Titus, and then after the Bar Kokhba revolt the Jerusalem church was permitted to remain in the renamed Aelia Capitolina, but notably from this point onward all bishops of Jerusalem bear Greek rather than evidently Jewish names.[73][74]
Scholars such as: Pierre-Antoine Bernheim,[75] Robert Eisenman,[76][77] Will Durant, Michael Goulder,[78] Gerd Ludemann,[79] John Painter,[80] and James Tabor, argue for some form of continuity of the Jewish Jerusalem church into the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and that the Ebionites regarded James the Just as their leader.
Ebionites - Wikipedia
These followers of James lived in the same place as the Elkesaites.
Clement of Alexandria says Matthew was a vegetarian. Hegesippus said James was a vegetarian. (1 Corinthians 8:10-13 and Romans 14:1-15:1 strongly indicate that Paul was a vegetarian)
The Elkesaites must have gotten their views from somebody.
The views of the Elkesaites (their book existed 100 A.D.) would make sense if one recognizes their place in the context of the Gospel of John (chapters 1-3) and Hebrews (chapters 5 to 10).
The vegetarianism of the Ebionites is documented and they consider the Temple destruction to have been the end of killing animals (which were already prohibited before the Temple destruction) when sacrifices ceased.
Did Jesus originate these new ideas and commands?
Or was there a pre-Jewish school that he got the idea's from.
It has to be asked.
But we need to understand his views first. His logic. Where he was going.
Then where did it com from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 07-28-2016 3:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 07-28-2016 7:03 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 716 (788289)
07-28-2016 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 6:04 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo (no jar!)?
Sheesh.
More nonsense and irrelevancy.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 6:04 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 268 of 716 (788292)
07-28-2016 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
07-28-2016 7:03 PM


Re: Another "nonsense" charge by Ringo (no jar!)?
quote:
Sheesh.
More nonsense and irrelevancy.
What do you think of Jeremiah 7:22
quote:
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
כִּ֠י לֹֽא־דִבַּ֤רְתִּי אֶת־אֲבֹֽותֵיכֶם֙ וְלֹ֣א צִוִּיתִ֔ים בְּיֹ֛ום [הֹוצִיא כ] (הֹוצִיאִ֥י ק) אֹותָ֖ם
מֵאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם עַל־דִּבְרֵ֥י עֹולָ֖ה וָזָֽבַח׃
עוֹלָ֖ה whole/burnt offering
וָזָֽבַח׃ sacrifice
Then Exodus 12:27
quote:
That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses
וַאֲמַרְתֶּ֡ם זֶֽבַח־פֶּ֨סַח ה֜וּא לַֽיהוָ֗ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר פָּ֠סַח עַל־בָּתֵּ֤י בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ בְּמִצְרַ֔יִם בְּנָגְפֹּ֥ו אֶת־מִצְרַ֖יִם וְאֶת־בָּתֵּ֣ינוּ הִצִּ֑יל וַיִּקֹּ֥ד הָעָ֖ם וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲוּֽוּ׃
שמות 12:27
Exodus 12:27
וַאֲמַרְתֶּ֡ם זֶֽבַח־פֶּ֨סַח Then you shall say the sacrifice of the passover
זֶֽבַח־ the sacrifice
פֶּ֨סַח the passover
Jeremiah 7:22 has זָֽבַח sacrifice
Maybe this influenced Jesus?
An issue to consider.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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 Message 267 by jar, posted 07-28-2016 7:03 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 716 (788293)
07-28-2016 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 12:55 PM


Re: Look at James Tabor showing a prohpecy in Dead Sea Scrolls!
Again...you won't find the truth in a search engine. You can use one once you yourself have the truth within you. Otherwise it is, as jar would say...word salad.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:55 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 270 of 716 (788294)
07-28-2016 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
07-28-2016 7:24 PM


On "word salad"
The last 3 words of Jeremiah 7:22 are "words of (a) whole offering and (a) sacrifice. (my translation)
But the word sacrifice is there right beside the word "passover" in Exodus 12.
I think Jesus saw Moses as not saying words that reflected history or Gods heart.
See Matthew 19:8
quote:
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
(see Deuteronomy 24)
James was aware of scripture being changed.
They knew about the contradictions between the Massorah and the Septuagint for one.
Jesus said "mercy not sacrifice". He quoted Hosea.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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