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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 271 of 716 (788295)
07-28-2016 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
07-28-2016 7:24 PM


James Tabor's Dead Sea Scroll
quote:
First, the text speaks of a single Messiah figure who will rule heaven and earth.
Second, it mentions in the clearest language the expectation of the resurrection of the dead during the time of this Messiah.
Third, and perhaps most important for students of the New Testament, it contains an exact verbal parallel with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke for identifying of the signs of the Messiah.
First, a translation of the fragment itself:
[The hea]vens and the earth will listen to His Messiah, and none therein will
stray from the commandments of the holy ones.
Seekers of the Lord, strengthen yourselves in His service!
All you hopeful in (your) heart, will you not find the Lord in this?
For the Lord will consider the pious (hasidim) and call the righteous by name.
Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power.
And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom.
He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the b[ent]
And f[or] ever I will cleav[ve to the h]opeful and in His mercy . . .
And the fr[uit . . .] will not be delayed for anyone.
And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as [He ]
For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead (lit. make live the dead) and bring good news
to the poor(Michael O. Wise, translation)
TaborBlog – Page 7 – Religion Matters from the Bible to the Modern World
This was the basic text but he provides alot of commentary.
I was just alerting people to it since there has been extremely weak examples of prophecy that Jesus fulfilled (especially from you Phat).
It is a Dead Sea Scroll document.
Not the Old Testament.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 07-28-2016 7:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 272 of 716 (788321)
07-29-2016 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
LamarkNewAge writes:
This is not nonsense.
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 12:43 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-29-2016 12:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 273 of 716 (788322)
07-29-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by LamarkNewAge
07-28-2016 3:24 PM


Re: "Take it to an appropriate thread."
LamarkNewAge writes:
Very important when it comes to learning where Jesus was coming from in his views on there RELEVANT issues.
Actually, Jesus' views aren't relevant to this thread. The only question is whether or not He fulfilled the messianic prophecies. If He thought He did, that doesn't matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-28-2016 3:24 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 274 of 716 (788325)
07-29-2016 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by ringo
07-29-2016 11:38 AM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
quote:
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?
Pay attention.
Here is the "prophecy" part and yes I am using the Old Testament. That much is required.
quote:
Amos 5
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
quote:
Hosea 6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
quote:
Joel 2
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
....
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
quote:
Malachi 4
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
NOW THE NEW TESTAMENT FULLFILLMENT ISSUES.
quote:
Matthew 3
3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 9
9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 11
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 12
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
quote:
Acts 2
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 7
42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
47 But Solomon built him an house.
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
quote:
1 Corinthians 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1 Corinthians 10
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1 Corinthians 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 07-29-2016 11:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 07-29-2016 12:32 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 275 of 716 (788326)
07-29-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by LamarkNewAge
07-29-2016 12:24 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
LamarkNewAge writes:
Pay attention.
To what? All you did was quote a few passages. Tell us how Jesus did or did not fulfill the prophecies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-29-2016 12:24 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-29-2016 12:55 PM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 276 of 716 (788328)
07-29-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
07-29-2016 12:32 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
quote:
To what? All you did was quote a few passages. Tell us how Jesus did or did not fulfill the prophecies.
It said that Elijah would return before the Day of the Lord.
Acts 15:15-17 describes Amos 9:9-11 as fulfilled.
quote:
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Connected to the Day of the Lord
quote:
Amos 5
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
Acts 2:16-21 references Joel 2:30-32 and the first few verses describe it as a Day of the Lord.
Hosea 6 mentions a rising after 3 days and the end of sacrifice in a prophetic context.
quote:
6 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
James said the gentile Christians (representing the world) replaced the old nationalism with circumcision as the covenant. So "Ephraim" would be gentiles now.
quote:
1 Corinthians 5
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1 Corinthians 6
[NRSV not King James like other quotes]
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1 Corinthians 10
16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
Romans 12
1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship
....
For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ
....
1 Corinthians 11
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
If one allows the Septuagint to be the text of prophecy for Amos 9:9-11, then gentiles replace Israel. They become members of Christ according to the text

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 07-29-2016 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 07-29-2016 1:05 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 277 of 716 (788330)
07-29-2016 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by LamarkNewAge
07-29-2016 12:55 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
LamarkNewAge writes:
It said ....
Make... an... argument. In your own words, tell us exactly how those passages confirm or deny that Jesus was the Messiah. The case may be clear in your own head but it certainly isn't coming across clearly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-29-2016 12:55 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-29-2016 2:55 PM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 278 of 716 (788337)
07-29-2016 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by ringo
07-29-2016 1:05 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
quote:
Make... an... argument. In your own words, tell us exactly how those passages confirm or deny that Jesus was the Messiah. The case may be clear in your own head but it certainly isn't coming across clearly.
I'm making an argument based on the words of Jesus himself.
And James.
I have no argument.
The unknown gospel writers attempted to connect almost everything in the Old testament to Jesus. They saw him in every passage.
I'm look at the words of Jesus, James, and Paul (plus Peter in Acts 2 if that event was historical and it could have been if they all spoke Aramaic). Paul talked about prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15.
No the later evangelists

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 07-29-2016 1:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 07-30-2016 11:42 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 279 of 716 (788351)
07-29-2016 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by GDR
07-28-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
But Jesus redefined the enemy with the enemy being evil itself with the ultimate evil being death.
If you get to redefine the enemy, then I could be the Messiah. Anybody could be the Messiah.
If you have to redefine the prophecies, then that is sure sign that you didn't fulfill the prophecies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 07-28-2016 12:43 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by GDR, posted 08-01-2016 6:52 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 302 by GDR, posted 08-04-2016 6:21 PM Taq has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 280 of 716 (788371)
07-30-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by LamarkNewAge
07-29-2016 2:55 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
LamarkNewAge writes:
I'm making an argument based on the words of Jesus himself.
You may think you're making an argument but I can't even figure out which side you're on. Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not?
Of course, you can't base your conclusion on the words of Jesus Himself; that would be like believing what a con man said about the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-29-2016 2:55 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-30-2016 12:28 PM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 281 of 716 (788373)
07-30-2016 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by ringo
07-30-2016 11:42 AM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
quote:
You may think you're making an argument but I can't even figure out which side you're on. Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not?
I wish I did a better job at things too. I just put Elkesai reincarnation into google, and guess what was nearly at the top of the over 7000 hit pages?
Google (type) elkesai reincarnation
2 of the top 5 were an EVC hit of my reincarnation thread. Ahead of the Cambridge History of Judaism on Elkesai.
Now I really wish I did a better job on the issue(plus I have a lot stuff I wanted to put up more, including quotes of J Vernon McGhee dancing around the issue, but Percy won't let me make pastes) since people are reading my words in a way that I didn't expect.
I put mani manichean reincarnation into google and the EVC thread is at 31 out of 5000 pages hit.
Google (then type) mani manichean reincarnation
"Jesus reincarnation" had the thread at around 152 out of 500,000 hits. (Though "Jesus teach evolution" is at hit 36, on page 4, out of exactly 499,000 page hits)
(I didn't expect the "Elkesai reincarnation" search to bring my EVC thread up, but the bombshell discoveries, in recent decades, - on the Elkesaites early existence - clearly are in need of peoples attention. They must not be getting the deserved awareness if even my weak post's are getting (what?) 20% of the attention on googles top hit page. Shows just how unaware people must be with so few internet pages on the subject. And the problem is not ignorance only of the Elkesaites.
Off topic, but yes I understand my arguments leave alot to be desired. Hope I'm not wasting people's time too much.
I still think we out to respect the views of the early Jewish Christians, which requires an understanding of what exactly they taught. James Tabor showed that the early Jewish Christians called themselves Ebionites (he used the New Testament text as evidence) and the non-Jews called them Nararenes.
quote:
According to the book of Acts, which comes late in the 1st century, the followers of Jesus were called, or perhaps called themselves, the Way (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 24:14, 22). The term Christian or Christians is mentioned twice, but presented as a newly minted designation, probably coming from outsiders, as the movement spread north to Antioch of Syria (Acts 11:26; 26:28). It is surely surprising for many to realize that the term Christian only occurs one other time in the entire New Testament, in one of our latest sources (1 Peter 4:16). This is, however, the name that apparently stuck as it shows up in our earliest Roman sources mentioning the movement, namely Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Lucian, and Galen (see texts here.). It is a Greek name, not a Hebrew or Aramaic one, but unfortunately the English term veils what was likely the more original connotation of the term, which would translate roughly as something like Messianist.
There is, however, a reference in the book of Acts to a Hebrew name for the Jesus movement that might have well been its earliest formal appellation. Paul, on trial before the Roman governer Felix, is referred to as being the ring leader of the sect of the Nazarenes (Acts 24:5). Whether this term was used by outsiders to label the group, or within the movement itself, is difficult to know. Associated with the term Nazarenes is a second Hebrew designation, namely Ebionites, that was also apparently used for the earliest mostly-Jewish followers of Jesus.
Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus – TaborBlog
Back to Ringo
quote:
Of course, you can't base your conclusion on the words of Jesus Himself; that would be like believing what a con man said about the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge.
Better than taking the "prophecy fulfilled" references of the evangelists that wrote the Gospels. They came a good ways after Jesus, and that was just their attempt to see Jesus in the Old Testament.
I will stick to words of Jesus and James myself.
Not the works of later men.
And that is the scripture part of the equation.
When it comes to "traditions", we need to see what the Jewish Christians taught in the first century. It isn't exactly a piece of cake to find out, but we should at least agree that the 1st century Jewish Christians were alot closer to Jesus than the Roman Catholic traditions that Protestant's ironically hold so dear to their hearts. My reincarnation thread has a fundamentalist poster literally putting the authority of the 4th century A.D. Greek/Roman Christian church over the authority of the very Book of Jude itself.
We need to see what the Jewish Christians believed and taught.
It is important.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 07-30-2016 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 07-30-2016 12:41 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 282 of 716 (788374)
07-30-2016 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by LamarkNewAge
07-30-2016 12:28 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
LamarkNewAge writes:
Better than taking the "prophecy fulfilled" references of the evangelists that wrote the Gospels. They came a good ways after Jesus, and that was just their attempt to see Jesus in the Old Testament.
I will stick to words of Jesus and James myself.
Not the works of later men.
But you only have "the works of later men" to tell you what the words of Jesus were.
And you still haven't said whether you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-30-2016 12:28 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-30-2016 2:56 PM ringo has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 283 of 716 (788378)
07-30-2016 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by ringo
07-30-2016 12:41 PM


Re: Back to Ringo and his claims of "nonsense".
quote:
But you only have "the works of later men" to tell you what the words of Jesus were.
And you still haven't said whether you believe Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies or not.
We have to take everything in an aparatus that is critical.
Here is the only non-Christian writing that actually mentions Jesus during the first century (aside from the same author offering one other highly tampered-with passage that should perhaps be be ignored, this is all we have).
It is Jospehus (a Jew).
quote:
Now it is said that the elder Ananus was extremely fortunate...but the younger Ananus, who had been appointed to the high priesthood, was rash in his temper and unusually daring. He followed the school of the Sadducees, who are indeed more heartless than any of the other Jews, as I have already explained, when they sit in judgment. Possessed of such a character, Ananus thought that he had a favourable opportunity because Festus was dead and Albinas was still on the way. And so he convened the judges of the Sanhedrin, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the one called Christ, whose name was James, and certain others, and accusing them of having transgressed the law delivered them up to be stoned.
Hegesippus (born around 110 and died around 180) said James was thrown from the Temple Mount.
Let's start with James as a foundational figure and of fundamental importance if we consider the early Christians who were worthy of mention. He seems to be somebody who the Temple authorities don't like and they consider him to not be following the Law properly.
But, the larger issue on the "past".
Did it happen one way or another way?
This way or that way?
What do I "believe" happened?
The answer is that the past happened.
Nothing we say or do can change the past.
Nothing we believe can change the past.
It already happened.
In what way?
(It happened) The way it did.
Now.
We can and should try to learn as best we can what happened 2000 and 2500 years ago.And for that matter 10,000 years ago. And, for another matter (and that matter) what happened other years and times in the past.
But what we reconstruct doesn't change what already happened.
What we can reconstruct will say more about our best working conclusions of the past that what exactly happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 07-30-2016 12:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 08-02-2016 11:38 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 284 of 716 (788384)
07-30-2016 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
quote:
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly. Even some Jewish commentators find two different Messiahs in the Hebrew scriptures, the Suffering Servant and the Warrior King, ben Joseph and ben David being the names they assigned these two anointed ones I think though I may not remember the names rightly. And some even considered that there might be three Messiahs. This is because the scriptures present different portraits of Him. (A book on Jewish Messianic teachings by Raphael Patai, a nonChristian Jew, is my main source for this information).
I went to Google then typed 'dead sea scroll text risig 3 days' .
The first hit was a 2008 New York Times' article.
quote:
Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
By ETHAN BRONNERJULY 6, 2008
JERUSALEM A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.
If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.
....
Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai.
....
Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C.
A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the stone’s authenticity.
It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the stone, which Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed Gabriel’s Revelation, also the title of their article. Mr. Knohl posited in a book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the world of Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual evidence from before Jesus.
When he read Gabriel’s Revelation, he said, he believed he saw what he needed to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in the latest issue of The Journal of Religion.
Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political atmosphere in Jesus’ day as an important explanation of that era’s messianic spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish independence fighter could take on messianic overtones.
[more in story at link]
Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection - The New York Times
Care to comment on the significance of finds like this? Do you interpret this as a natural thing that would happen if the scriptures give clear prophecies on a suffering Messiah rising after 3 days? So does this add strength to your argument or is it not significant?
Do you feel that the literature between the Testaments should be considered inspired in any way or do you think it just reflects interpretations of revelation?
If it is just late B.C. interpretations of Jews, and not any sort of sacred-text type of prophecy, then what is your theory on what, where, and when the actual revelation came from? Just the Old Testament (and nothing else)?
If so then how do you explain the fact that Jesus told John's Disciples (in the Q source which made its way into the Synoptic Gospels) that he did several things which match with a Dead Sea Scrolls Messianic text and nothing mentioned in the Old Testament? See post #271 (above)and go to TaborBlog – Page 7 – Religion Matters from the Bible to the Modern World and see article Making Live the Dead Ones which is second article from top. Scroll down past the article What Really Happened Easter Morning—the Mystery Solved? to get to the article of interest (to me anyway, I'm interested).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 285 of 716 (788537)
08-01-2016 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by ringo
07-28-2016 12:47 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended.
ringo writes:
What's the difference between what people think the prophecies mean and what people think God intended?
The Jews were unsure of what the prophesies meant. There was uncertainty over how they would recognize a messiah and what they do. The majority believed in a warrior messiah who would drive the Romans out and physically rebuild the Temple. There were various views.
Jesus' view varied quite dramatically from that majority view. He went as an act of faith to the cross contending that the Father would somehow vindicate His understanding. It is the Christian contention that God did just that by resurrecting Him.
Then Paul and other early Christians, with this knowledge, went back to the scriptures to fully understand what it was that Jesus understood and meant by what He said and by what He did.
ringo writes:
If the people who wrote the Old Testament can't be relied on to convey God's intent, how can the people who wrote the New Testament be relied on to convey Jesus' history?
The Christian contention, (including mine) is that the resurrection is affirmation of what John says in the first chapter of his gospel.
quote:
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
As I have said before there is no Christianity if there is no resurrection. Without that we can just as easily follow any other philosopher. However with the resurrection it is certainly reasonable to consider that if we want to see the true nature of God then we look to Jesus.
The NT writers had the benefit then of either knowing Jesus personally or through gaining understanding by what those that did know Jesus wrote or said. Luke opens up his gospel this way:
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
In other words, the NT writers had more information to work with.
Edited by GDR, : typo
Edited by GDR, : Another typo. I have to do a better job of proof reading

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 12:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 08-02-2016 11:46 AM GDR has replied

  
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