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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5270
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 166 of 168 (788471)
08-01-2016 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
08-01-2016 12:47 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
Phat writes:

My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance. The universe was in fact created by necessary certainty. That it is means that we are. I struggle for the words I want to say. It may well be that one could assert that a Designer/Creator is unnecessary, but I would say that if the universe exists by necessity and if we exist and can intellectualize this stuff, than Certainty is involved rather than chance.

No Phat, what you are saying with all these mental gymnastics is that you don't understand how all this can have come about. You're tying yourself in knots with barely understood ideas.

Well nobody understands and it can't be resolved just by thinking and talking bollox - people far cleverer than you and me have failed to get anywhere with these sorts of arguments for thousands of years. The only progress we've made towards answers have come from mathematics and physics and those are beyond our comprehension.

I suggest you stick to your simple beliefs which are designed to get us over these difficult problems of incomprehension and not bother with trying to reconcile it with actual knowledge because it's pointless. It has never got anywhere and it never will - it'll just mess up your head.

The alternative, of course is to let go and realise that what you believe does not correlate to reality and get on with life for what it actually is without the waste of energy and time that is belief; quite short, but also quite interesting.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 08-01-2016 12:47 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 10130
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 167 of 168 (788509)
08-01-2016 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
08-01-2016 12:47 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance.

I think we understand your belief. What seems pretty funky is your attempt to apply rational thought to what you believe. I sincerely doubt that even the sources you quote came to their set of beliefs using what you describe as logic. That stuff is clearly after the fact of your belief. It contains no persuasive power whatsoever.

The universe was in fact created by necessary certainty.

After the fact, even probabilistic events leave a certain result. It appears that in telling us that the universe was created out of necessary certainty that you are attributing processes and motivations to God.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11859
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


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Message 168 of 168 (788512)
08-01-2016 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
08-01-2016 12:47 AM


Re: Necessary Certainty
My point is that I believe that the universe cannot be said to have occurred by chance.

Who's saying that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 08-01-2016 12:47 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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