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Author | Topic: Why did we stop inventing gods? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 294 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Phat
"Jobs assets and family were restored.." Can the pain of losing a child be erased by having another child? If you think so then you do not know anything about love. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 294 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Phat
"First of all, I do not see God as genocidal." If you do not see Noah's flood as a genocide then nothing you say is credible. RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 294 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
[qs]Phat
I am willfully obedient, but I have a free will. Not if you do so to a lord and master. RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given. Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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People who believe in aliens usually think they have empirical evidence for them. I think you're talking about people who think they've been visited by aliens. I was talking about there being aliens "out there", not ones living among us. And it that case, I stand by my claim: I believe that there are aliens out there and I have no empirical evidence that it is true. That is what I mean by a belief. I don't mean that I don't have reasons though.
Again, I'd guess you have some kind of evidence for your belief in them, but probably dismiss it because it isn't what you think of as "empirical" evidence. No, I do not have some kind of evidence that aliens are out there, empirical or otherwise.
By which I suppose you mean SHARABLE observation or experience. Like replicable science experiments anyone can do. I would prefer the term VERIFIABLE, through the senses.
Of course there's always witness evidence and in fact that's probably the biggest category of evidence any of us has for anything we believe. Somebody else observed or experienced something and we either believe them or we don't. Meh, witness evidence sucks for accepting things, or concluding things, or for concurrence. But yes, it can be a source of what I call belief.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
GIA writes: God created us as freewilled creatures with autonomous natures. We were not born addicted---though some may argue we were born addicted to sin.
My question on this is, --- your god created your nature. Why did he put that addictive nature in you knowing that you could not resist following your god given nature?Seems like a set up to me. Phat writes:
Jobs assets and family were restored...GIA writes: No. Job suffered pain. God did not directly cause that pain though by allowing satan to do it,critics could argue that God was responsible. Can the pain of losing a child be erased by having another child?So again the question: If God could prevent pain and suffering in our lives, why does He not? I maintain that reality is. There are days we will experience pain. There are days we will suffer. And about Noahs flood....what does the evidence show us concerning such an event? Can we hold God responsible for a story in a book that was written by humans? Seems to me if anything it is humans whom we should indict.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
Cat Sci writes: No, I do not have some kind of evidence that aliens are out there, empirical or otherwise. But I think you do. It may not be conclusive but there is supportive empirical evidence that aliens are probable. The evidence consists of 1) the fact that there is life in the universe (with absolute proof of it here on earth), and 2) there not being any compelling reason to assume that life on earth is special or unique. Combine these two and you have reason to believe that aliens may exist. You do not know for certain but it is a reasonable belief, based on some solid evidence."Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But I think you do. It may not be conclusive but there is supportive empirical evidence that aliens are probable. The evidence consists of 1) the fact that there is life in the universe (with absolute proof of it here on earth), and 2) there not being any compelling reason to assume that life on earth is special or unique. Combine these two and you have reason to believe that aliens may exist. I don't consider evidence that they are probable or may exist to be evidence that they do exist. But yes, there are reasons to believe it. Still though, no evidence. As I was saying, if I had evidence for it then I'd stop calling it a belief. I'd accept that aliens are out there, but I can't do that, can I?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: I don't want anyone dicking with my head except me.You are delightfully honest. Tangle writes: See...I find new wisdom nearly every day. Reading it is one thing. Applying it is another.
There's absolutely nothing new to be found in the bible. It's been exactly the same for 2,000 years. I studied it for years and believed in it the same way you do now. It was my world view - been there, done that. Tangle writes: Perhaps they dont have special knowledge, but I would argue that many get insights that you or I might not yet understand. What you and your chums fail o realize is that God is living and active...as is the Word. Of course, you insist on evidence, as if the evidence isnt evident already. I can't convince you...thats for sure. The mistake that you and your chums continually make is to assume that by seemingly being clever, other people can know something they don't about this god thing. No-one, that's no-one, has any special knowledge of god; not those on my side - Dawkins, Hawking etc or those on yours - the pope and that charleton favourite of GDR's, C S Lewis. They're all as clueless as you and I.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: Applying it is another. You're head is stuffed full of misconceptions Phat. If you believe it, you apply it. There's no choice. Are you suggesting that when I believed it, I didn't? If so why?
Perhaps they dont have special knowledge, but I would argue that many get insights that you or I might not yet understand. You can't argue that can you? All you can do is assert it and hope. You have absolutely nothing else. And of course, you've accidentally asserted that those that think that the whole thing is a pile of horseshit also have special knowledge.
What you and your chums fail o realize is that God is living and active...as is the Word. Well yes, obviously. 'Cos if he was living and active it's likely we'd all notice, not just those that, well, best left unsaid.
Of course, you insist on evidence, as if the evidence isnt evident already. I can't convince you...thats for sure. But if the evidence was evident you wouldn't have to convince me would you? You know, it's not like I'm Faith and impervious to evidence. I live and breathe evidence, I will change my mind. I don't have a book that makes sure that I can't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Do you think he expected to become rich again?
How did he become rich again?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: You likely saw no evidence. Being a man of reason...logic reason and reality were something tangible to you...so you changed your worldview. If you believe it, you apply it. There's no choice. Are you suggesting that when I believed it, I didn't? I have seen subjective evidence of the supernatural and I have also witnessed dramatic transformations in other peoples lives. People may claim it happens to everyone--not just believers---but I have yet to see it outside of my box.
Tangle writes: Again, yes I do. I have had personal experience. You may claim that you did also, but I doubt it. Not at the level I had, at any rate.
All you can do is assert it and hope. You have absolutely nothing else.Tangle writes: You have already convinced yourself that God does not exist, so I would have to unconvince you...which it is doubtful I can do.
if the evidence was evident you wouldn't have to convince me would you?Tangle writes: Thats good to hear. We will take this one day at a time. Until then, I hope that you have a good life. I live and breathe evidence, I will change my mind. I don't have a book that makes sure that I can't.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: You likely saw no evidence. Being a man of reason...logic reason and reality were something tangible to you...so you changed your worldview. No Phat, no. I fully believed just like you - then I didn't. Please don't overthink this.
Again, yes I do. I have had personal experience. You may claim that you did also, but I doubt it. Not at the level I had, at any rate. You have no idea what I felt, nor I you, so you'd be advised not to make assumptions. Secondly, i've worked with seriously mentally ill people and am very aware of what people are capable of experiencing in their minds. I'm not saying that you or anyone else is mentally ill, I'm making the point that our minds are capable of fooling us all the time. If you've ever studied anything about what our mind can do, you'll know that it can't be trusted. The vast majority of its work is to prevent 'us' - our conscious selves - from getting in its way.
You have already convinced yourself that God does not exist, so I would have to unconvince you...which it is doubtful I can do. Of course you can - just provide the evidence. Real eveidence. Evidence of what is going on in your or anyone else's head is not useful, I have met three Jesus's, one Hitler and one Prince of Wales. We can very easily fool ourselves in far less dramatic matters. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
quote: I find it very ironic that you would say that about the Canaanites. Look at this link for biblical quotes showing who built the Temple and the Holy of Holies. The Canaanites!http://phoenicia.org/temple.html I won't quote from those texts but they are interesting indeed. However,here is some of the Biblical text showing where they were supposed to be killed and dispossessed.
quote: But they remained for ever it seems. They were specifically given the towns according to Kings.
quote: The Sidonians were allies and friends during the time of David.
quote: The Canaanites and Israelites were essentially a united people during the Monarchy period. This is an interesting recent story out of the land of Israel. (fairly long)
quote: The Canaanites became Jewish and then Christian and to this day there are those who identify with their ancestors.
quote: They seemed to have become followers of the religion you prefer.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
Here is her commentary on the issue of Christians killing others. GIA said that gnostics (which he should know that the vast majority of "gnostics" were Manicheans and they just adored Jesus, but that is another issue) were killed after the Roman Empire became Christian.
quote: Always accept the Catholic theology up till when Faith? The Byzantine Empire (East Roman Empire that is called "Byzantine Empire" after 476 A.D.)killed Christians in large numbers. Consider this historical fact (aside from the silent and ignored side issue that Manicheans likely made up the bulk of the "Christian" majority in Iraq in the 7th century) of tolerance among the Persian Empire (that started around 224 A.D.) which stretched east of the Roman/Byzantine Empire all the way to India and China. Then I want to ask you a question.
quote:(This wasn't a quote mining operation on my part (as I am frequently accused), but was the first hit under a book search on Iraqi population of the 7th century. Google ) Now my question is why we have to keep making modern day western Christians innocent of this shameful reality of intolerance? The Persians took Jerusalem in 614 C.E. and held it for a few decades. The Jews and Christians were free to travel and worship in Israel/Palestine during those 2 decades. Otherwise the Christians were persecuted badly by Byzantine Empire and it was all the way back at 500 A.D. and earlier when the persecution existed and the Holy Land was free of the Roman Papacy after 476. I'm trying to figure out why you keep describing yourself as one of the persecuted (you obsessed over the pre-Constantine Roman Empire a million times over as a time when YOU would be thrown to lions), yet you seem to love the post-Nicea period up to a point. When exactly did you start to disagree with the theology of the Roman Empire? Remember that Christians in Egypt, Palestine, Syria were very much persecuted in the days BEFORE Justinian and Theodora. The records are very clear on that one.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2313 Joined: |
quote: Gnostic Christianity had a negative view of Jesus? Try that one again. It does seem that "Gnostic" thought evolved out of Christian religion, though as many historians say that Gnosticism and Christianity had independent origins then the two merged into Gnostic Christianity. It is certain that the "demiurge" strains of Christian Gnosticism came later than the initial Gnosticism. Christian Gnosticism didn't start till after 100 A.D. and it was very much fundamentalist and Jewish Christian when it first started (based on the evidence I have seen). There wasn't an anti-Jesus strain at all however. Not in the endless varieties of Gnosticism (early or late). Do you know something we don't?
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