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Author Topic:   GDR On Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 6 of 78 (789574)
08-16-2016 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
08-16-2016 2:03 PM


you have a very small God
Remember the Bible is made up of 66 books with hundreds of authors. Why should we give them all the same credibility.
You don't think God has the power to direct the writing of His word whether by a few or many people? "The word of the Lord came to me" is how most of the prophets present their writings, as coming FROM God Himself. That's how all the books of the Bible are understood to have been written, by "holy men of old" writing things down as the Holy Spirit moved them. The human personalities of the writers affect how they present their part of the revelation, their style, their human experiences, but the content, the message, comes straight from God. ALL OF IT. Not "by the will of man."
The word "prophecy" is generally used to refer to ALL the words that come straight from God through the writers of the scripture, not merely specifically the writings of the prophets themselves:
2Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
You are very much in error when you impute any of it to the will of man; in fact what you are doing is imposing your OWN fallible human will on God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 8 of 78 (789577)
08-16-2016 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
08-16-2016 6:01 PM


Re: Credibility
This was a big thing after all - God feels that the situation is so serious that he involves himself in earthly matters to the extent that he sends his 'son' (how rediculous is that idea?) to send a message to us all. But the message is so garbled that we're still arguing about it 2,000 years later. This is supposed to be a God? Leave it out.
God has never NOT been involved with His creation. He made the creation and human beings partly to deal with the rebellion of Satan and his fallen angels: The best theology shows that humanity is designed in the image of God so that we will ultimately have the power to displace the satanic hordes in a restored universe ruled by righteousness.
Since we fell just as Satan and his hordes did we have to be redeemed and regenerated, and that is possible because we ARE the image of God. The demonic hordes can't be redeemed so they spend all their time trying to spoil us so we can't be either. Such as by convinding us they don't exist and that God isn't real and the reason Jesus came is "garbled."
There is nothing garbled about the sacrifice of Christ. He didn't come with a "message" He came to die for us to redeerm us from sin so that we can ultimately inherit a more perfect creation even than the original one, but also take the place of the demonic hordes. Forever.
Nothing credible there of course. Just true.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2016 6:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 78 (789587)
08-16-2016 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by GDR
08-16-2016 7:49 PM


Re: you have a very small God
No, you are reducing Jesus to suit your fallen mind by refusing to accept the whole word of God.
And of course you can impose your will on God. That's what we all do when we disobey Him anyway, but picking and choosing from the Bible according to what you approve and disapprove is certainly imposing your will on Him by contradicting Him.
And I thought I might as well bring over a post I wrote on the other thread in response to what became your OP here:
Although many try, you can't square the loving forgiving God we see in Jesus to the vengeful God that is sometimes portrayed in the OT. It can't be done. That does not mean that we can't find the loving God in the pages of the OT as well.
What do you do with the NT passages that describe Jesus as that vengeful God?
(Oh I'm sure I know: you tell yourself they were written by people who hold opinions you don't like so therefore they must be false. Oh well.)
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb....
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 8:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 9:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 78 (789592)
08-16-2016 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
08-16-2016 8:25 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Isn't the Bible great Faith? There are so many contradictions included that you can pick and choose whatever you want, vengeful Jesus passages and forgiving Jesus passages.
There is no need to choose, the Bible is very clear that Jesus came the first time as the Suffering Servant (Isaiah 53) who died to save us, but will come the second and final time as the conquerer.
Do you remember that He read Isaiah 61 in the synagogue ...
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives...
and then announced, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears."
Meaning that He Himself was the fulfillment of it. But He only read the "nice" part, the description of Himself as the Good Guy that GDR and so many others like so much.
And left out the part that goes on to include as part of His mission,
{Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God...
The Day of Vengeance was not His mission on His First Advent; but it will be on His Second Advent, which is what both those passages I quoted are about, His return as the conquerer with all His angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance....
But as to you Thessalonians quote I would think it certainly would apply to many if not most so called "Biblical Christians".
Some of us may be with Him when He returns, but mustering angels and flaming fire is a bit beyond our job description.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 8:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:00 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 78 (789596)
08-16-2016 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
08-16-2016 9:00 PM


Re: you have a very small God
But Jesus is not said to have quoted that part of Isaiah so it seems Jesus, at least as the author of Luke tells it, repudiates the vengeful critter Isaiah marketed.
I see. Pickers and choosers even have to make Jesus into a picker and chooser.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:06 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 78 (789598)
08-16-2016 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
08-16-2016 9:06 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Talk to whoever wrote the story. That is who put the words into the character Jesus mouth. And yes, it is quite clear that the authors of the various New Testament works very selectively picked passages from the Old Testament and used them out of context to create the mythos called Christianity.
Funny they chose to "create" a Jesus who would "repudiate" the part of Isaiah 61 about His mission of vengeance, but then wrote the passages in 2 Thessalonians and Revelation about His coming with His angels in flaming fire to take vengeance on His enemies, and even watch the tormenting of His enemies with fire and brimstone. You'd think even fallen men would have the ability to write something more consistent than that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:18 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 78 (789600)
08-16-2016 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
08-16-2016 9:18 PM


Re: you have a very small God
And of course the generations upon generations of people who believed the Bible just as written, as God's true revelation, all those great theologians like Augustine and the Church Fathers and so on down the centuries were just gullible mo*rons who hallucinated its consistency and supernatural coherence and were too stu*pid to recognize all those contradictions you find in it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:35 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 78 (789603)
08-16-2016 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Coyote
08-16-2016 9:32 PM


Re: St. Augustine???
I didn't say the Church Fathers were perfect, and Augustine got some things wrong, but in general they recognized the Bible as God's true word. Only the Bible's writers themselves are said to be inspired by God.
As the different books of the New Testament were being written and copied and circulated among the far-flung churches, they were judged on their authenticity and inspiration by the elders of the churches. A consensus emerged eventually that became the basis of the canons proposed by the various Councils.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Coyote, posted 08-16-2016 9:32 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 78 (789604)
08-16-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
08-16-2016 9:35 PM


Re: you have a very small God
The main characteristic of believers down the centuries is the fear of God, which would keep them from daring to treat God's word as a mere human creation, or to "market" anything of their own invention in its place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:46 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 78 (789606)
08-16-2016 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
08-16-2016 9:46 PM


Re: you have a very small God
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
I'm quite sure you haven't a clue what the fear of God even means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:46 PM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 78 (789614)
08-17-2016 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by GDR
08-16-2016 10:01 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Critics would accuse me of picking and choosing which words to use.
Every Christian does.
I do not, nor does any preacher I like to listen to nor any Christian I know personally. One knows whether they pick or choose or sincerely submit to the word as God's own word. You cannot make up for me something other than I myself know is my honest attitude. You know that you choose from the Bible what to accept and what to reject on the basis of your own judgment of morality; I know that I do not do that and it is not your place to say otherwise. You do to me what you do to the Bible.
Faith doesn't argue for genocide or public stonings. She would rationalize it away I presume by saying it was necessary then but not now.
God's dealings with ancient Israel had different requirements than His dealings with the followers of Christ. They were a theocracy among heathen nations, Christians do not constitute an earthly nation. Their first task was to be God's arm of judgment against the Canaanites who had reached the "fullness of time" with their idolatrous practices including the sacrifice of children. But the Old Testament is full of pictures of Gpd's plan of redemption, and the picture here is of God's people displacing Satan's people, or the demonic hordes as rulers of God's creation.
You should keep in mind that everything in the Bible is done in the light of everything else in the Bible. What we learn from Genesis is that the world has come under the rule of Satan because of Adam's disobedience and that God has a long-range plan to defeat him and save sinners from slavery to him. {He [the Messiah, the seed of the woman] shall crush his head and he [the seed of the serpent, Satan] shall bruise His heel). ALL the nations of the world are enslaved to Satan as a result of the Fall in Eden but God has promised to set us free from him.
God chose Abraham to be the father of a people of God's very own, raising them up from one man to a mighty nation to represent Him in the world and to ultimately be the source of the Messiah He promised to send to defeat Satan. Satan's laws are diabolical, involving things like child sacrifice and sexual practices as "worship" of "God." God chose to rid the world of the worst of these. YOU call that "genocide" because you've bought the idea that they are "innocent"
That is of course also why He drowned the entire world in the Flood a few hundred years before Abraham. We don't even know all the reasons, but scripture hints at some pretty heinous sins committed by humanity. However, He also offered salvation on the ark to anyone would take it. They had a hundred years of Noah's preaching to repent. Only Noah and family chose to be saved.
Back to Israel: God gave Israel laws suitable to running a theocracy among idolatrous nations. They had severe laws with severe punishments as a way to keep them separate and safe from the idolatrous practices and true to their King, Jehovah. They nevertheless failed and had to go into exile and suffer many punishments, but separation was the purpose of their laws even though they ultimately failed to obey them.
I'm curious as to how she thinks God would want to use public stoning by the community for someone picking up firewood on the sabbath, or for difficult kids then,
Picking up wood on the Sabbath was a horrific violation of the Commandment to Keep the Sabbath Holy and do no work on that day. The punishment had to be severe as an example to the people. That was the point of the death penalty, so that they would take God's Law seriously and keep from profaning it. Refraining from picking up firewood on that one day isn't a lot to ask, wouldn't you think? So if someone does that against God's express command, to keep that act from corrupting the people required the most stringent punishment.
ABE: In case you could be interested in listening to a good sermon I recently heard this one about the Sabbath by John MacArthur. There is a Part 2 at You Tube also, and another sermon on the same basic subject, Why Sunday is the Lord's Day. I'm not quite sure where he says that Jesus actually rescinded the Sabbath but somewhere in these three, maybe Part 2. Anyway I love listening to John MacArthur on just about any subject and he's in good form on this subject.
/ABE
And yuour "difficult kid" was so unruly that he would have become a source of corruption to the community as well. And although scripture refers to him as a "child" commentators describe him as a young adult. Like the priest Eli's sons, who were adults committing horrific sins -- sexual sins, theft, profanation of the animal sacrifices -- during their duties as priests. God had them all put to death, including Eli for failing to discipline them. THAT is the proper context for "difficult kids."
All those laws were for the purpose of keeping the nation of Israel holy and pure. Being fallen like the rest of us they couldn't sustain the rigors of their duties and kept falling into sin, even imitating the heathen nations by sacrificing their children to demon gods, and profaning the temple with the incorporation of heathen gods, so God finally sent Assyria to completely do away with the Northern Kingdom, though He preserved Judah for David's sake as the promised progenitor of the Messiah.
It was only when the Messiah came and sent the Holy Spirit that fallen humanity had the power to obey God's laws. But He gave the laws to teach their purpose and the severe punishments to keep the people holy though fallen humanity isn't up to them. Through the Holy Spirit, if we "walk in Him" we now have the power to obey. It's still hard, we still fall into the "flesh" but now we are safe from punishment because of Jesus' sacrifice for us. Without that all humanity, every last one of us, would die without redemption.
SO, Christians are now under an entirely different "dispensation." We are not an earthly nation so we aren't under the laws God gave Israel. In fact all those laws were fulfilled in Christ and we have the benefit of their fulfillment being imputed to us, God's own righteousness our own now. We obey the moral law as we are able through His power, but now it is an individual thing and not a national thing. He also rescinded the Sabbath so we are no longer under that law and avoiding all work like picking up firewood is no longer required of us. We excommunicate sinners like the unruly "child" but beyond that I'm not sure how that law affects us in the Messianic dispensation. But we are also taught that vengeance is God's and we are not to take revenge ourselves for anything. When Jesus returns everything will be set right.
The problem is you do not have a proper understanding of the complexities of God's revelation, the history it recounts and the plan of redemption which is what it is all about, and you apply man's standards instead. In this little sketch I may have failed to do it anything like the justice it deserves.
but presumably, (maybe I'm wrong here), wouldn't see it done for some of the heinous things have happening today.
See above.
ABE: I should add that not being a nation but citizens of many nations, and charged with taking the gospel to the world, we are also charged with being "salt and light" in the world --- to influence the world to avoid the corruptions fallen humanity under the yoke of Satan is prone to -- (killing unborn babies for instance, treating sexual sins as rights and lots more). Satan's been winning lately. We've fallen down on the job.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 10:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:36 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 78 (789618)
08-17-2016 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
08-17-2016 2:36 AM


Re: you have a very small God
I said not an EARTHLY nation. We are a nation but not in the sense of earthly nations.
I can't bel.ieve what you are willing to say against God. but I guess I have to give up trying to change your mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:36 AM GDR has replied

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 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:51 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 78 (789622)
08-17-2016 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
08-17-2016 2:51 AM


Re: you have a very small God
I am saying that God actually loves the people that He cared enough about to create them. You are saying that He is prepared to slaughter the ones He doesn't like ....
"doesn't like???" Oh my aching head. Sin, GDR, sin, sin is the reason for all the punishments God brings against anyone, the violation of God's Law, and the worse the sin the greater the punishment.
I just happened to be listening to a reading of Jeremiah (around chapters 45 through 49 or thereabouts) in which over and over again God through Jeremiah tells the people that He will punish them because they have not obeyed His Law. There is no other reason. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking, it's about obedience, it's about the Moral Law that rules the universe. It's sin that brings judgment down on nations, and on individuals. That will be the reason for Jesus' taking vengeance at His Second Coming too and since He came the first time to pay for our sins so we don't have to suffer the punishment for them, it will be punishment for refusing His offer of salvation in His own blood.
Sin is the reason for ALL the suffering on this earth. Even the Hindus have a rudimentary understanding of the inexorability of the Moral Law in their concept of karma. It's not a perfect understanding by any means, but it's in the ballpark.
We ought to be able to learn from scripture that sin is the wrecker of everything and the cause of all misery on this earth. Love does not let sin go unpunished: that would be the opposite of love.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:51 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 11:46 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 78 (789639)
08-17-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by GDR
08-17-2016 11:46 AM


Re: you have a very small God
Sigh. God is long-suffering, says scripture, and gives lots of time to repent, with lots of warnings before punishing sin. Canaan had four hundred or more years of time to repent. God's prophets were warning Israel of coming judgment hundreds of years before God sent them into exile and completely banished the Northern Kingdom.
He also of course planned from the beginning to send the Redeemer to save us from punishment for our sins, and that promise became a theme repeated throughout the Old Testament through various prophets.
David was severely punished for his sins. For the sin of seducing Bathsheba and having her husband killed, the baby Bathsheba conceived by him died; then one of his sons raped his half-sister and was killed by another son, who then challenged David to the throne and died.
Forgiveness is possible NOW through the sacrifice of Christ; it was possible before Christ only through faith in the promise of the coming Redeemer. Sin HAS to be punished, so Jesus took that punishment for us. Forgiveness would not be possible otherwise.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 11:46 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 1:12 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 78 (789654)
08-17-2016 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
08-17-2016 1:12 PM


Re: you have a very small God
So instead of punishing David you see God going after David's family including having an infant die. This again is what you get when you are a follower of an inerrant Bible instead of a follower of Jesus.
I should have given up some time ago but some things beg to be answered. Seems to me that a parent would rather die himself than see his children die. Three sons died.
We all inherit sin and punishment too, scripture says that. All humanity inherits the sin nature from Adam and we also inherit from our more immediate ancestors. We may not know the source of a particular experience but sometimes we do. When you see your own sins coming down on your children I think that is a far worse punishment than anything that could happen to you personally, and I'm sure David knew why his children were going through what they did and was particularly agonized because it was his own fault.
If there is some protection of David himself implied, it is because David was "a man after God's own heart," who had many sins but the right heart toward God and sincerely repented of his sins when he saw them.
Once again you simply ignore what Jesus taught. How about "you who is without sin cast the first stone". Jesus obviously taught that sin that is repented can be forgiven without punishment.
Nothing at all obvious about that. The Law is absolutely inexorable, every jot and tittle of it must be fulfilled. It HAS to punish sin and punish it to perfect precision. Jesus was teaching that the Pharisees are not without sin either, and demonstrating His divine power to forgive too, and probably also anticipating the change from the laws of the Old Testament dispensation to the new dispensation based on His sacrifice; but that doesn't mean the woman is not still subject to punishment by the Law of God. Punishment does not always immediately follow on the sin, as has been said, but it WILL eventually follow. But since Jesus took the punishment of the sins of believers on Himself He is in a position to forgive.
The forgiveness that comes through the cross and resurrection is for life to come when all things are renewed. You are confusing forgiveness and justice in the past and present of human existence with the justice and forgiveness that is yet to come.
No I'm not. You are. Jesus' saving the woman from stoning doesn't mean she was saved from punishment in some other way. As scripture tells us, there are ALWAYS consequences for sin in this life as well as the next.
This is getting boring but once again - why God would subject His chosen people to the horrors of slaughtering men, women and children instead of just doing it Himself.
That happened what, once? Twice? Yes it is getting boring. If scripture doesn't explain it or imply an explanation I leave it to God. It's His universe.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 1:12 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:38 PM Faith has replied

  
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