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Author
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Topic: GDR On Faith
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 1 of 78 (789452)
08-14-2016 6:49 AM
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GDR writes: Just a thought on your post. Isn't there a difference between knowing God and knowing the details of how He brought us into existence. For that matter isn't there a difference between knowing that God is good and loving and knowing in detail what the future holds in store. As I've said to Faith a number of times, the faith is Christianity not Biblianity. Too often, IMHO, the church has made a false idol out of the Bible. The Bible is the "word" of God. Jesus is the "Word" of God. Read through the first chap. of the Gospel of John. The Bible is a collection of books as you well know. We have to read different authors within the context of the world they lived in and know that we cam learn from the times the get it right as well as the times they got it wrong. Although many try, you can't square the loving forgiving God we see in Jesus to the vengeful God that is sometimes portrayed in the OT. It can't be done. That does not mean that we can't find the loving God in the pages of the OT as well. If we take the Bible as inerrant we wind up with a god that calls us to love our neighbour and our enemy, but sometimes wants us to slaughter them, men women and children. Does that make sense to you? Can we bump this over into another topic away from the science forum? GDR asked a good question in Faith vs Science and I wanted to start a new topic.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 12:49 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 77 by Hawkins, posted 08-25-2016 4:07 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 3 of 78 (789541)
08-16-2016 12:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-14-2016 6:49 AM
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Reply To GDR
Isn't there a difference between knowing God and knowing the details of how He brought us into existence. For that matter isn't there a difference between knowing that God is good and loving and knowing in detail what the future holds in store. I can know someone quite well. Even though I know the person---a best friend, for instance--I may not know the details of many incidents and accomplishments in their lives. And God can be good and loving and still be no guarantee of a future free from hurt and pain. Just look at Job.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-14-2016 6:49 AM | | Phat has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 5 of 78 (789571)
08-16-2016 5:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
08-16-2016 2:03 PM
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Credibility
Remember the Bible is made up of 66 books with hundreds of authors. Why should we give them all the same credibility. However, as Christians we supposedly see Jesus as the embodiment of the wisdom of God so that should be the filter or lens that we use to understand where the Biblical authors got it right and where they got it wrong. True. Of course we could argue that just as hundreds of authors cant or shouldn't share the same credibility we could argue that there are millions of Christians...how do we determine their credibility?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2016 6:01 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 10 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:34 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 12 of 78 (789585)
08-16-2016 8:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 11 by GDR
08-16-2016 7:49 PM
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Re: you have a very small God
What you are doing is replacing Jesus as the 2nd person in the Trinity with the Bible. Although keep in mind that John tells us that Jesus is the Word made Flesh. Through Him all things were created. That being said, I dont believe that every word of the 66 books is inerrant nor dictated solely by God. Critics would accuse me of picking and choosing which words to use.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:49 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 10:01 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 39 of 78 (789647)
08-17-2016 1:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
08-16-2016 2:03 PM
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GDR writes: Remember the Bible is made up of 66 books with hundreds of authors. Why should we give them all the same credibility. However, as Christians we supposedly see Jesus as the embodiment of the wisdom of God so that should be the filter or lens that we use to understand where the Biblical authors got it right and where they got it wrong. In Things That Differ Stam emphasizes rightly dividing the word of truth. He explains how many supposed discrepancies in the Bible are more clearly seen in context. For example: quote:
Does this mean, then, that II Tim. 2:15 and II Tim. 3:16 contradict each
other? Surely they do not. The fact is that, written only a few paragraphs apart,
by the same author, to the same person, about the same Book, these two verses
complement each other. II Tim. 2:15 explains how God's workman may get most
out of the Bible, while II Tim. 3:16 declares that all of it was given for his profit.
All Scripture is indeed profitable when "rightly divided," but when wrongly divided
or not divided at all, the truth is changed into a lie and becomes most
unprofitable. Thus II Tim. 2:15 is the key to II Tim. 3:16 and to the understanding
and enjoyment of the Word of truth.
He also differentiates how scripture is to be understood by equating it with sending a letter.
quote:
If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly in one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as
some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must "rightly divide" the
mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like
confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting
each person's private mail to him. It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other
dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse
this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions
meant particularly for others. While I am reading mail addressed personally to me, a friend may hand me,
for my interest or information, mail addressed to him. His mail and mine may all
prove informative and profitable, but I must still be careful not to confuse the two,
expecting to receive things promised to him or carrying out instructions
addressed to him. Thus all the Bible is for us, but it is not all addressed to us or written about
us, and if we would really understand and enjoy it; if we would really know how
to use it effectively in service for Christ, we must be careful always to note who
is addressing whom, about what and when and why.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:07 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 51 of 78 (789703)
08-18-2016 11:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
08-18-2016 1:08 AM
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Re: you have a very small God
In my mind, Divine Retribution was common in Old Testament times because that was the dispensation of that time. LAW. If any nation or people break the rules, death was the prescription. War is Hell. However, in the Age Of Grace, I would think that GDR has a point in that it no longer applies, thanks to Jesus. Remember He died for everyone...not just believers. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 1:08 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 12:15 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 55 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 12:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 52 of 78 (789705)
08-18-2016 12:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by jar
08-17-2016 8:21 PM
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Re: Even pagan philosophers knew God's Law is slow, exact and inherited
Hopefully though people today are more moral than that character. Christians today---in the Age Of Grace--have done horrendous things to other people and cultures and their is no excuse for their actions. There should be no such thing as retribution in the times of turn the other cheek.. And by the way, the "God character" created us long before we imagined Him. (or Her, for those who believe God has no gender!  )
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 8:21 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 57 of 78 (789733)
08-18-2016 3:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 55 by GDR
08-18-2016 12:52 PM
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Re: you have a very small God
GDR writes: God was always just, loving and forgiving. He didn't just all of a sudden change. Jesus made it clear as to what was of God in the OT and what wasn't. We are Christians and we are to follow the teachings of Jesus. He is the Word of God. Yes all scripture is useful for teaching, correcting and training in righteousness. We can learn from everything in the scriptures but that is not to say that it is inerrant. When we read about genocide and public stoning through the lens of what Jesus taught we can see that how easy it is to turn to the dark side for own reasons and turn away from the values that come through Jesus. It is Jesus that fully represents the nature of God. Not an inerrant Bible which is why I suggest that Faith is worshiping a false idol. The Dispensationalist teachers largely agree with you. The principles of God never change.
Stam writes: A principle, as we have used the word above, is a settled rule of morality or conduct. We respect men with principles; men who stand for the right, whatever the cost. God, of course, has the very highest principles and never deviates from them. He always did and always will hate sin. Sin always was and always will be contrary to His holy nature. In no age has this been any less so than in any other age. In like manner, God always did and always will delight in righteousness, mercy and love. God never has and never will deviate in the slightest degree from these principles. The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his
brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did,
although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this
right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we
should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble
over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make
murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took
place under the dispensation of grace? You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the
sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too
was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and
ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and
justice remain fixed? The principle of grace is equally unchangeable. This may be simply demonstrated by one passage of Scripture: Rom. 4:1-6
Abraham lived before the dispensation of the law. How was he justified?
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom.
4:3).
David lived under the law. How was he justified? "David also describeth the
blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works"
(Rom. 4:6).
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. How are we
justified? "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom. 4:5). Jar and others take note. Christianity may well be about what we do but note:
Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation,
whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear
from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially
by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 12:52 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:20 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 58 of 78 (789734)
08-18-2016 3:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
08-18-2016 12:15 PM
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Re: you have a very small God
I would argue that at the time this is to be fulfilled, the Church is no longer on the earth. There are no righteous people left...only stubborn ones who do what is right in their own eyes.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Faith, posted 08-18-2016 12:15 PM | | Faith has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:24 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 62 of 78 (789780)
08-19-2016 9:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by GDR
08-18-2016 7:24 PM
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*Poof* They are gone
Some Christians believe in a Rapture.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:24 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 63 by GDR, posted 08-19-2016 10:47 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 64 of 78 (789817)
08-20-2016 8:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
08-19-2016 10:47 AM
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Re: *Poof* They are gone
GDR writes: Some people read the Bible as if it was written specifically for a 21st century audience and not for a culture radically different than our own 2000 years ago. Are you suggesting that the Bible was only written for the people of that era back then? I disagree. There is quite a bit of controversy over the whole idea of a Rapture of the church. There is also quite a lot being said about the supposed Last Days and End times. This is nothing new, and as the Bible itself says, there will be a lot of false prophets in regards to this type of talk. While none of us know for sure what the future holds in store for us, allow me to present to you the case for the last days as presented by one of the better book writers. he presents his case in a disciplined manner. We can either discuss it here or we can start another new topic,GDR. Its your call.
The Coming Epiphany Yes he sells books, though he is basically giving this one away..which is one reason I downloaded it. It is quite possible he misuses scripture, as NT Wright suggests many do....but his argument seems sound. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by GDR, posted 08-19-2016 10:47 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:06 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-20-2016 12:02 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 71 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 12:31 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 66 of 78 (789823)
08-20-2016 11:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 65 by jar
08-20-2016 11:06 AM
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Re: *Poof* They are gone
And what possible reason can you give for anyone taking your latest Epiphany source seriously when history shows that every past similar prophet including Jesus has been shown to be wrong? Wouldn't a better "Epiphany" be seriously doing what we are commanded to do; to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, protect the weak, do for others? You are quite mistaken in your understanding. Jesus was never "wrong." And to claim such shows your spiritual ignorance. You need to read the Bible without your intellectual blinders on.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:06 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 67 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:35 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 68 of 78 (789825)
08-20-2016 11:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 67 by jar
08-20-2016 11:35 AM
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Re: *Poof* They are gone
yes, I think so! Logic reason and reality could never happen were Jesus only human. It is more proper to say that Jesus is a work in progress. He will return. And He is and was never wrong. As Christians, we are not called to correct Jesus as Jews did with God.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:35 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:43 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 72 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 9:33 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 73 of 78 (789885)
08-21-2016 9:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by GDR
08-21-2016 9:33 PM
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Re: *Poof* They are gone
Wasn't there logic reason and reality before Jesus? In my belief, Jesus was in the beginning. Thus there was nothing before Jesus.
Also, how do you understand Jesus as being more than human? He is eternal. He was not created. He was in the beginning a reality in Gods mind.
Also If Jesus is never wrong, how can He be a work in process. What I meant was that Jesus as understood by us is a work in progress in our own understanding.  As for my reaction to your post, you bring up some good food for thought. I believe that the Bible is written for us today and not just to the audience of its time...but I don''t seek to make an idol out of it...if I can help it.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 9:33 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 74 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 10:38 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 78 of 78 (790109)
08-25-2016 4:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Hawkins
08-25-2016 4:07 PM
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Hawkins Unplugged
The Bible remains the only book for humans not only to get to know God at the explicit level, but also for a said standard to convey such that a said final judgment can be carried out legitimately. Not sure I totally agree. The Bible is in my belief Gods word to humanity, but reading the book itself is not the only way people get saved. And I dont worry about a final judgement nor do I preach about it. Such information does not help possible new believers.
God has to maintain the consistency of its contents such that the contents 'published' to humans 2000 years ago remain the same contents 'published' to humans today. This can only be done through a serious canonization and the existing of an earthly authority - the church to prevent further editing out of human wills. I believe that humans have done as good a job as possible in preserving the essential message.
{we}you definitely need the guidance from the Holy Spirit. Agree.
God calling us to love our neighbors and enemies and to leave vengeance onto His hand because we can't tell precisely whether our enemies are the saved or not. We can't tell whether they are our brothers and sisters or not. Its easier to assume that everyone is in the same boat rather than trying to judge who is "saved" or not. Treat everyone the same.
Eradicating the Canaanites on the other hand... I believe it had to be done, but I wont blame God totally for it. Humans decided that God told them to do it.
It's God's job to ensure that His message of salvation/judgment will reach later humans for more souls to be saved. So I suggest we not worry about how it gets done.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Hawkins, posted 08-25-2016 4:07 PM | | Hawkins has not replied |
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