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Author Topic:   Still small voice of God found
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1 of 77 (789621)
08-17-2016 2:59 AM


quote:
Scientists from Oxford University and UCL have identified part of our brain that helps us learn to be good to other people. The discovery could help understanding of conditions like psychopathy where people's behaviour is extremely antisocial.
The researchers were led by Dr Patricia Lockwood, who explained: 'Prosocial behaviours are social behaviours that benefit other people. They are a fundamental aspect of human interactions, essential for social bonding and cohesion, but very little is currently known about how and why people do things to help others.
'Although people have a remarkable inclination to engage in prosocial behaviours there are substantial differences between individuals. Empathy, the capacity to vicariously experience and understand another person's feelings has been put forward as a critical motivator of prosocial behaviours, but we wanted to test why and how they might be linked.'
The scientists used a well-understood model of how people learn to maximise good outcomes for themselves and applied this model to understand how people learn to help others. While being scanned in a MRI machine, volunteers had to work out which symbols were more likely to give them, or someone else, a reward.
They found that while people readily learn to make choices that benefit other people, they do not learn it quite as fast as they learn to benefit themselves. However, they also identified a particular brain area involved in learning to get the best result for other people.
Dr Lockwood said: 'A specific part of the brain called the subgenual anterior cingulate cortex was the only part of the brain that was activated when learning to help other people. Put another way, the subgenual anterior cingulate seems to be especially tuned to benefiting other people.
'However, this region of the brain was not equally active in every person. People who rated themselves as having higher levels of empathy learnt to benefit others faster than those who reported having lower levels of empathy. They also showed increased signalling in their subgenual anterior cingulate cortex when benefitting others.'
'This the first time anyone has shown a particular brain process for learning prosocial behaviours -- and a possible link from empathy to learning to help others. By understanding what the brain does when we do things for other people, and individual differences in this ability, we are better placed to understand what is going wrong in those whose psychological conditions are characterised by antisocial disregard for others.'The
Scientists from Oxford University and UCL have identified part of our brain that helps us learn to be good to other people. The discovery could help understanding of conditions like psychopathy where people's behaviour is extremely antisocial.
The researchers were led by Dr Patricia Lockwood, who explained: 'Prosocial behaviours are social behaviours that benefit other people. They are a fundamental aspect of human interactions, essential for social bonding and cohesion, but very little is currently known about how and why people do things to help others.
'Although people have a remarkable inclination to engage in prosocial behaviours there are substantial differences between individuals. Empathy, the capacity to vicariously experience and understand another person's feelings has been put forward as a critical motivator of prosocial behaviours, but we wanted to test why and how they might be linked.'
The scientists used a well-understood model of how people learn to maximise good outcomes for themselves and applied this model to understand how people learn to help others. While being scanned in a MRI machine, volunteers had to work out which symbols were more likely to give them, or someone else, a reward.
They found that while people readily learn to make choices that benefit other people, they do not learn it quite as fast as they learn to benefit themselves. However, they also identified a particular brain area involved in learning to get the best result for other people.
Dr Lockwood said: 'A specific part of the brain called the subgenual anterior cingulate cortex was the only part of the brain that was activated when learning to help other people. Put another way, the subgenual anterior cingulate seems to be especially tuned to benefiting other people.
'However, this region of the brain was not equally active in every person. People who rated themselves as having higher levels of empathy learnt to benefit others faster than those who reported having lower levels of empathy. They also showed increased signalling in their subgenual anterior cingulate cortex when benefitting others.'
'This the first time anyone has shown a particular brain process for learning prosocial behaviours -- and a possible link from empathy to learning to help others. By understanding what the brain does when we do things for other people, and individual differences in this ability, we are better placed to understand what is going wrong in those whose psychological conditions are characterised by antisocial disregard for others.'
https://www.sciencedaily.com/...ses/2016/08/160815185612.htm

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 08-17-2016 8:44 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 3 of 77 (789631)
08-17-2016 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
08-17-2016 8:44 AM


Re: God In A Box
Phat writes:
Humans are capable of empathy
No Phat, humans are incapable of NOT having empathy - unless there's something very wrong with them - psychopathy for example.
It is a gift
No again Phat, it's just another emotion like love, anger, happiness etc. These are necessary features - if we didn't have empathy our society would not work. It's simply another evolved trait.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 08-17-2016 8:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 6 of 77 (789650)
08-17-2016 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
08-17-2016 2:17 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:
...and evolution is a gift - from God.
Good, can I take it from that comment that you now accept that empathy is an evolved trait and not a little voice in your head directly from god?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 4:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 8 of 77 (789652)
08-17-2016 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
08-17-2016 4:33 PM


Re: God In A Box
Jar writes:
The two things are not mutually exclusive.
Well let's see. We have fMRI scans that show when and where the processing of empathy happens and can induce those feelings at will.
On the other hand we have what exactly?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 4:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 4:47 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 11 of 77 (789657)
08-17-2016 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
08-17-2016 4:47 PM


Re: God In A Box
Jar writes:
I have no idea what you have but I have a belief
What's that got to do with the price of fish?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 5:45 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 12 of 77 (789658)
08-17-2016 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GDR
08-17-2016 5:12 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:
That still small voice is infectious the way it evolves eh.
In as much as I have any clue what you mean, empathy is quite definitely infectious in that you catch it from your parents. Unless you're very unlucky.
So perhaps you could answer the question? Is empathy an evolved trait?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:12 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:46 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 15 of 77 (789662)
08-17-2016 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
08-17-2016 5:46 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:
The still small voice of God that is IMHO responsible for our conscience was there from the beginning, and so we feel a twinge of guilt when we make the wrong moral choice, although ultimately I suppose some people can push that so far into the background that is virtually silenced.
Do you see this brain function - which it is now demonstrated that is what empathy is - is somehow different from say, hate? Or any other emotion you care to mention? Is it only the brain function of empathy that is god given? If so, wither hate?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 7:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 21 of 77 (789695)
08-18-2016 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-17-2016 7:26 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:
I suggest that our basic nature is to look out for number one as we see largely in the animal world, although I do agree that animals can be infected with the empathy virus as well.
Looking after others as well as yourself is extremely common in the animal kindom. In fact it's a necessity for those animals that give birth to offspring that need looking after until they can look after themselves. That's all mammals and birds. Many organisms will sacrifice themselves to save their offspring or communities - this is shown in spectacular way in social animals like ants and bees.
The ability to live as a social group utterly depends on the evolved instinct of empathy. It also relies on other evolved features like aggression and attraction.
It seems to me that we start off life this way and during our lives we learn empathy from the love of our parents and others, or we might have our selfishness reinforced and hate flows from that.
This is very simplistic, but we do know that our upbringing affects an individual's ability to empathise with others. But the ability to do it at all is endemic - it's a brain function.
It is hate that we allow to develop when something or someone stands in the way of what we want and is an extension of our basic nature.
So it's natural. Exactly like empathy
Our natural instinct then is to be strong and have power over others in order to be one of the fittest genetically and other wise. It is why our natural inclination is to seek out strong healthy mates.
This is only one part of us, the other sides of us include the things you like - empathy, love, co-operation etc. They are all natural traits that allow us to succeed as a social species. Without the full set, we couldn't survive.
For some reason, you seems to want to claim the 'good' instincts for god and the 'bad' ones for nature. They're all of a piece. By identifying brain functions for them and showing them in other species - monkeys are a great example - we can show that they're simply evolved traits like all others.
Your 'still small voice' is a naturally occurring brain function. We can now watch it at work.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 7:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 1:18 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 24 of 77 (789722)
08-18-2016 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by GDR
08-18-2016 1:18 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:
I'm interested in the processes but the point is whether or not the processes are the result of an intelligent prime mover or not. Can non-intelligence beget intelligence. I don't believe that it can. Obviously you do.
We see it happen every day - children are born, they grow, they develop emotions and intelligence. It's a natural process. God is not involved.
Did god do it the first time - who knows, not you or I, but the evidence is that all our traits are evolved and we have similar analogues in other species. So that's the best bet given we've got zip evidence for anything else.
Also, our thoughts are the result of numerous inputs. We have no way of accurately discerning whether or not that still small voice as our conscience is one of them.
That's bizarre - they've watched it at work, are you saying this is god making the brain light up?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 1:18 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:42 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 29 of 77 (789738)
08-18-2016 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:07 PM


Re: Whatever
Phat writes:
I may have mentioned before that I do not believe in chance.
The universe doesn't care - chance exists and can be proven to exist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 7:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 33 of 77 (789760)
08-19-2016 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
08-18-2016 7:05 PM


Re: Whatever
Phat writes:
So how do you determine chance if you cannot determine probability?
In a coin toss p = .5; there you go, chance is proven - go test it yourself.
Also...all three of these documents are arrogant, unsubstantiated, and far from conclusive.
Well thanks for the random insight.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 7:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 34 of 77 (789761)
08-19-2016 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
08-18-2016 7:42 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:
Except that we can draw our own conclusions about whether or not there is anything else going on beyond what is obvious.
Sure, we can make shit up without evidence and replace rational thought with wishful thinking. It's a process mankind has used for thousands of years.
Happily, it's now changing - even your beliefs are much diluted compared to your ancestors. We've chased all Gods back to into deism and may well go further.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:42 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 41 of 77 (789776)
08-19-2016 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
08-19-2016 8:39 AM


Re: God In A Box
Phat writes:
And thats the problem. You have effectively replace God with human wisdom. And you see no problem with that.
Problem??? Why could there possibly be a problem? You need to explain why knowledge and human progress is a problem.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 42 of 77 (789778)
08-19-2016 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
08-19-2016 8:57 AM


Re: God In A Box
Phat writes:
Are you concluding that from mindlessness, mindfulness formed?
Of course, how on earth else do you think it happens? Do you have god intervening at each birth to insert a mind??

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 52 of 77 (789842)
08-20-2016 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
08-20-2016 6:40 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:
Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved
Please point to an single unnatural process that is involved.
but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not.
Yet we have enormous quantities of evidence that it's entirely a natural process and absolutely none that it's not. Unless, of course, you can tell us otherwise.
I believe that it does.
Yup, that's all you have. And it doesn't bother you at all that that's all you have. But it should.
Nevertheless, you're a product of the new age. You're forced to accept knowledge. Your beliefs are liberal Christian. Soon, like the majority of Northen Europe those beliefs will generalise further; that's progress.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 6:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 7:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
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