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Author Topic:   Still small voice of God found
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 5 of 77 (789649)
08-17-2016 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
08-17-2016 11:56 AM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:
It's the gift of evolution
..and evolution is a gift - from God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 08-17-2016 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 4:29 PM GDR has replied
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 12:47 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 10 of 77 (789655)
08-17-2016 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
08-17-2016 4:29 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
Good, can I take it from that comment that you now accept that empathy is an evolved trait and not a little voice in your head directly from god?
That still small voice is infectious the way it evolves eh.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 4:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 5:28 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 14 of 77 (789661)
08-17-2016 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tangle
08-17-2016 5:28 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
In as much as I have any clue what you mean, empathy is quite definitely infectious in that you catch it from your parents.
Of course. It is God's call on humans to infect the world with sacrificial love. That was Christ's message. You defeat the Romans by infecting them with love rather than trying to defeat them by military means.
The still small voice of God that is IMHO responsible for our conscience was there from the beginning, and so we feel a twinge of guilt when we make the wrong moral choice, although ultimately I suppose some people can push that so far into the background that is virtually silenced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 5:28 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 6:07 PM GDR has replied
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 6:22 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 17 of 77 (789665)
08-17-2016 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
08-17-2016 6:22 PM


Re: God In A Box
jar writes:
The still small voice of God can be more than simply empathy.
Absolutely

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 6:22 PM jar has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 18 of 77 (789670)
08-17-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
08-17-2016 6:07 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
Do you see this brain function - which it is now demonstrated that is what empathy is - is somehow different from say, hate? Or any other emotion you care to mention? Is it only the brain function of empathy that is god given? If so, wither hate?
Well I’ll have a go at this. As I understand it survival of the fittest is a fairly basic part of the evolutionary process but not the only part of it. I suggest that our basic nature is to look out for number one as we see largely in the animal world, although I do agree that animals can be infected with the empathy virus as well.
It seems to me that we start off life this way and during our lives we learn empathy from the love of our parents and others, or we might have our selfishness reinforced and hate flows from that. It is hate that we allow to develop when something or someone stands in the way of what we want and is an extension of our basic nature.
Our natural instinct then is to be strong and have power over others in order to be one of the fittest genetically and other wise. It is why our natural inclination is to seek out strong healthy mates.
However we can see that we are able to rise above our base instincts and learn to act upon a concern for others and even love sacrificially. I am saying that I believe that ultimately it is our conscience or still small voice of God that pricks us when we make immoral choices as deep down we know that we should choose the moral path, but we are heavily affected by our environment as to which path it is that we choose.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 6:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NosyNed, posted 08-17-2016 8:23 PM GDR has replied
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 2:54 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 20 of 77 (789678)
08-17-2016 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NosyNed
08-17-2016 8:23 PM


Re: Instincts
Nosy Ned writes:
In actual fact, a lot of what you post is wrong. Animals do not always "look out for number one". You did say "Largely" and that makes what you say not untrue but it is very misleading.
I have no training in evolutionary theory but it was said in a thread somewhere along the line that all life is programed to advance its genetic pool. That does move it beyond simply looking out for number one.
NosyNed writes:
Also we know that we (and other animals) are born with empathy and a sense of fairness.
I agree that it can develop early on, but whether it is there at birth or not I think would be an open question. I'm certainly a lover of animals and am never surprised by the grief and empathy that animals can exhibit. I agree that animal intelligence and emotion is far greater than is generally understood.
Chicken Intelligence
NosyNed writes:
It is not simple and black and white and it is not as you think it is.
I agree its not simple and not black and white. I'm not sure what you think I think it is. Can you let me know as I'm not sure what I think it is either.
Edited by GDR, : left out word not in last sentence

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by NosyNed, posted 08-17-2016 8:23 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 23 of 77 (789719)
08-18-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
08-18-2016 2:54 AM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
This is only one part of us, the other sides of us include the things you like - empathy, love, co-operation etc. They are all natural traits that allow us to succeed as a social species. Without the full set, we couldn't survive.
For some reason, you seems to want to claim the 'good' instincts for god and the 'bad' ones for nature. They're all of a piece. By identifying brain functions for them and showing them in other species - monkeys are a great example - we can show that they're simply evolved traits like all others.
Your 'still small voice' is a naturally occurring brain function. We can now watch it at work.
I left the first part of your post out as we are in agreement on that. I actually don't disagree with the basic message here either. The thing is though, that once again you identify the process and assume that the process evolved from other mindless natural processes.
I'm interested in the processes but the point is whether or not the processes are the result of an intelligent prime mover or not. Can non-intelligence beget intelligence. I don't believe that it can. Obviously you do.
Also, our thoughts are the result of numerous inputs. We have no way of accurately discerning whether or not that still small voice as our conscience is one of them.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 2:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 1:35 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 25 of 77 (789723)
08-18-2016 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
08-18-2016 12:47 PM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:
Evolution is a gift from Biology, Chemistry, Physics. You might as well say that cancer is a gift from God.
IMHO evolution, biology, chemistry and physics are all gifts form God. As far as cancer is concerned, as a cancer survivor I thank modern medicine for the fact that I am still around and have avoided a very unpleasant death from sinus and brain cancer. I thank God that we have been given people with the brains to develop modern medicine and for those able to deliver it.
We do know that our physical bodies are temporal and that they don't last forever. Cancer is just one of any number of things that cause death. Ultimately I believe that our consciousness, soul, or whatever you want to call it, is eternal, and so from that POV death in this life is not the end of the story anyway.
However, you make a good point that is not easy for a Christian to answer, but I've done the best I can. I agree it is not a perfect world. Natural disasters and disease are a part of it. If there is no prime mover then natural evolutionary processes hasn't been so hot either. However, IMHO God does deal with these things by working through the hearts of people to bring some relief to those who suffer from these things.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 12:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 2:27 PM GDR has replied
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:07 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 31 of 77 (789749)
08-18-2016 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
08-18-2016 2:27 PM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:
We wouldn't expect it to be. Evolution is a natural process; what happens happens, whether anybody likes it or not. It's hard to conceive of a "prime mover" that would provide such aimless motion.
Certainly there is a randomness in the evolutionary process but in order to get from mindless particles to life of any kind let alone sentient life can't be that aimless.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Pressie, posted 08-19-2016 7:05 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-19-2016 11:44 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 32 of 77 (789750)
08-18-2016 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tangle
08-18-2016 1:35 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
We see it happen every day - children are born, they grow, they develop emotions and intelligence. It's a natural process. God is not involved.
Did god do it the first time - who knows, not you or I, but the evidence is that all our traits are evolved and we have similar analogues in other species. So that's the best bet given we've got zip evidence for anything else.
Except that we can draw our own conclusions about whether or not there is anything else going on beyond what is obvious. Many people grow up living lives that are completely contrary to the environment that they grew up in. Who knows what causes us as individuals to think the way they do. I believe that there is more involved than just natural processes and I believe that those natural processes are more than just the result of an infinite stream of other natural processes.
Can I prove it? No. You can't prove I'm wrong. It is simply my belief.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2016 2:28 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 46 of 77 (789799)
08-19-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
08-19-2016 11:44 AM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:
Sure it can. A mountain is complex but nobody suggests that it had to be "designed" by anything but aimless natural processes.
It is one thing to get to mountains from mindless and probably dimensionless particles, but it is another step further to get to sentient beings with an understanding of morality.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-19-2016 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-20-2016 11:50 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 49 of 77 (789839)
08-20-2016 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
08-20-2016 11:50 AM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:
That's an empty claim. In fact, mindless evolution does a better job of explaining morality than religion does. As often as not, it's the mind that gets in the way of morality. And especially, it's the many different "voices of God" that get in the way of morality.
Of course I don't believe that evolution is mindless. Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not. I believe that it does.
Also I believe that there is only one God and it is kinda up to us to sort out what He desires for us in the midst of all those other voices.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-20-2016 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2016 7:01 PM GDR has replied
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 08-21-2016 2:11 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 53 of 77 (789843)
08-20-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
08-20-2016 7:01 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
Yet we have enormous quantities of evidence that it's entirely a natural process and absolutely none that it's not. Unless, of course, you can tell us otherwise.
Sure all we can see are the natural processes. There would be no discernible evidence as to whether the process was intelligently created or not. We just see the changes and in general we can see how those changes happened. We would have no way of knowing whether or not there is an intelligent root cause so in the end all we have are our conclusions or beliefs.
Actually the fact that we can use science and biology to intelligently find a natural process is indicative that there is an intelligence that is responsible for the process, but I have a hunch you won't see it that way.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2016 7:01 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Riggamortis, posted 08-20-2016 9:05 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 3:26 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 58 of 77 (789864)
08-21-2016 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
08-21-2016 3:26 AM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
We both know that we were created by our parents. We know the process. We both know that evolution was the force that created the human species. We know that the brain and the endocrine system is responsible for our thought and emotional processes. Now we can actually see the specific parts of the brain that handles the emotional reaction that we call empathy.
That is like saying though that because we can see a generator producing electricity and observe the flow of electrons and understand what how that generator works, that we can forget about the fact that the generator itself required a source of energy in the first place.
Tangle writes:
We both agree that we don't (yet) know how the entire process began but for the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter. You keep saying that god intervenes in earthy matters routinely. Yet we see no evidence of it. I think you claim that the feelings you have that causes you to feel sorry for other people - empathy - is god intervening. Have I got that right? This 'still small voice' is god 'talking' to each of us personally. Is that what you belive?
Partly, but of course we are influenced by life’s experiences and what others say and do etc. However ultimately yes, I do believe that the ability to love unselfishly and even sacrificially ultimately can be traced back to God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 3:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 12:36 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 61 of 77 (789878)
08-21-2016 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Tangle
08-21-2016 12:36 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:
Yes, it's exactly like that. At the moment I'm trying to get you to talk about what's happening at the lightbulb - the generator is a different problem altogether. I'm allowing you a god given generator for the process of evolution, I'm trying to understand why you seem to be talking about empathy being driven by a different and supernatural process.
OK, so you are conceding the idea of a prime mover although you are actually agnostic on the point yourself.
As part of that idea that we might also believe that the prime mover could have planned at the beginning, an evolving sense of right and wrong leading to empathy as part of the evolutionary process. Actually I believe that to be the case although I would think it is done more through Dawkin's memes than I do through biology, and from what you've said I think that you would agree with that. This is essentially the point I was trying to make in the other thread.
However, again I do believe more than that, and for this I concede that it is primarily by belief and secondarily through experience, This is where we do really come apart on our conclusions. I do believe that in subtle ways, that we can't directly perceive, God does touch our hearts and minds. This is part of my faith for which I can present no evidence that would resonate with the non-theistic community.
Tangle writes:
Traced back to god directly - ie he's intervening minute by minute with our lives? or indirectly by kicking off evolution billions of years ago on a path that he knew would give us these traits? When we look at that picture, what do you think is happening to us? Are we reacting naturally or is there supernatural intervention making us feel sorry for the guy andmaking us want to help him?
I know that this sounds like a cop-out but I think it is all of the above. I want to emphasize that I really mean it is what I "think". I don't "know" the answer. As I've said in other threads my fundamental belief as a theist is that God is always, good, loving, kind and just and that He wants us as humans to reflect those qualities into the world.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 12:36 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2016 3:24 AM GDR has replied
 Message 66 by Pressie, posted 08-22-2016 7:09 AM GDR has not replied

  
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