Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   GDR On Faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 60 of 78 (789747)
08-18-2016 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:43 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Phat writes:
The Dispensationalist teachers largely agree with you. The principles of God never change.
It's people that change. There are a number of things that the dispensationalists believe though where I think they are way off base, particularly in their eschatological beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 61 of 78 (789748)
08-18-2016 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:46 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Phat writes:
I would argue that at the time this is to be fulfilled, the Church is no longer on the earth. There are no righteous people left...only stubborn ones who do what is right in their own eyes.
Just wondering where you think the go. The Biblical message is that all things will be renewed when God's heavenly dimension comes together with our own so the righteous should still be here.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 9:33 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 63 of 78 (789788)
08-19-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
08-19-2016 9:33 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:
Some Christians believe in a Rapture.
Some people read the Bible as if it was written specifically for a 21st century audience and not for a culture radically different than our own 2000 years ago. Understanding the idea of Jesus coming back on a cloud would be like someone writing today that it was raining cats and dogs and having someone read it 2000 years from now and thinking that Fido and Fluffy were falling out of the sky.
The biblical message is that resurrection is for all creation and we do have a foretaste of what resurrection looks like in Jesus. He moved between God’s dimension and our own.
Here is a short page on it by N T Wright. Farewell to the Rapture

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 9:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 8:49 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 71 of 78 (789834)
08-20-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
08-20-2016 8:49 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:
While none of us know for sure what the future holds in store for us, allow me to present to you the case for the last days as presented by one of the better book writers. he presents his case in a disciplined manner. We can either discuss it here or we can start another new topic,GDR. Its your call.
Here is how he starts off with this book:
quote:
The sun is suddenly darkened, the moon glows the color of blood, the ground shakes violently, the sky splits and rolls away like a scroll, and the stars fall. Grown men run frantically to and fro, screaming like babies, trying to find somewhere to hide, while others just faint from terror.
It is at this time that all the people of the world will have an epiphany. The epiphany will occur at the yet future event known as the Day of the Lord, which is mentioned many times in scripture. It is even the subject matter of the entire book of Joel. Many parts of scripture have whole chapters and paragraphs devoted to the topic. Understanding the Day of the Lord is foundational to a proper understanding of all biblical end-times prophecy. In this chapter, we will examine the essence, reason for, and duration of this Day.
This is the trouble again with trying to read a 2000 year old document written for a different culture, and in another language and reading it into our own context. Frederick is making that mistake largely because he comes into it with the understanding that the Bible is to be read literally through his 21st century eyes. Presumably he is taking this from Matthew 24 where Jesus draws on the books of Daniel and Isaiah. Jesus is talking to a first century Jewish audience. The question then becomes what is Jesus expecting them to understand by what He is saying.
Firstly, and most importantly they wouldn’t even understand this as being about what Frederick calls end times. The disciples asked when the end of the age would occur in Matthew 24, and this is the question that Jesus is responding to. The disciples aren’t asking about the end of the world they want to know when the end of the age of Roman occupation will end and this is the question that Jesus is answering.
One thing that makes this very obvious is that Jesus tells them:
quote:
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
If this is about the end of the world why on earth would He be telling them to flee to the mountains.
All the talk about the sky splitting and stars falling is simply Jewish apocryphal writing for great political or military upheaval. It is like us saying that the Roman empire fell. We don’t mean that it literally fell. The early Jews used much more colourful writing than what we would use today.
For understand the part about the coming of the Son of Man it is necessary to go back to Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days. It is about Jesus coming to the Father and being given dominion.
This was Jesus’ political message arguing against a military response to Roman occupation. He says that the result of that rebellion will be horrendous and that it will happen while people of that generation were still alive. This of course happened in 70AD. I’m not even saying that Jesus had supernatural knowledge but that to Him it was obvious that the Romans were more powerful and they would do what they always did when there was any kind of uprising. It happened again in 135 AD, and there was no doubt those that were able to see that coming as well.
Frederick is is simply taking things out of context and out of time. He is treating the Bible as a book written by God and in code which he claims to have decoded.
Here is a quote of what Frederick says in the preface to the book.
quote:
Scripture and scripture alone is the standard by which everything must be judged.
Well that begs the question of what about Jesus? Isn’t Jesus supposed to be the standard for Christianity?. Frederick is doing exactly what Faith does and is worshipping a false idol.
He goes on to say this:
quote:
Unfortunately, many approach end-times scriptures with a predetermined theological mindset and then try to make scripture fit into their theology. What sets this book apart from all the rest is that it attempts to approach the topic with all of scripture, and scripture alone, as its basis. A theological belief is then formed on the basis of what all of the scriptures dictate.
He is doing exactly what he accuses others of doing. He has his own theological mindset and applying it to what he writes. His misuse of the Scriptures then brings him to fundamental, (pun intended) misunderstandings of both God and Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 8:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 72 of 78 (789882)
08-21-2016 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
08-20-2016 11:38 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:
yes, I think so! Logic reason and reality could never happen were Jesus only human.
It is more proper to say that Jesus is a work in progress. He will return. And He is and was never wrong. As Christians, we are not called to correct Jesus as Jews did with God.
I'm curious what you mean by this Phat. Wasn't there logic reason and reality before Jesus?
Also, how do you understand Jesus as being more than human?
Also If Jesus is never wrong, how can He be a work in process.
This is one of your more enigmatic posts.
Also, I'd like to know your reaction to my post 71 in this thread. I scanned parts of the book you suggested and critiqued it. Just wondering how you respond to that critique.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 11:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 9:46 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 74 of 78 (789891)
08-21-2016 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
08-21-2016 9:46 PM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:
In my belief, Jesus was in the beginning. Thus there was nothing before Jesus.
But we know that Jesus had a specific day that He was born on. John 1 tells us how the Word became flesh. By that we understand that the Word or Wisdom of God has existed before the dawn of time and that Word was perfectly embodied by Jesus, so that we can perfectly understand God the Father’s nature and His desire for our lives.
Phat writes:
He is eternal. He was not created. He was in the beginning a reality in Gods mind.
Was He not created at birth? Isn’t it the Word that spoke the world into existence that existed before the dawn of time? Of course we should think of Jesus as part of the Godhead but we also must remember that He was fully human and laughed and suffered like any human. He prayed to the Father that He wouldn’t have to go into Jerusalem and certain death, but went anyway as a great act of faith. Without that so much of the meaning of the cross is lost.
Phat writes:
What I meant was that Jesus as understood by us is a work in progress in our own understanding.
Certainly and by extension we should understand that the understanding of Yahweh’s nature was a work in progress, or a progressive revelation, in the OT. That is one very good reason to understand the OT through the lens of how Jesus taught and lived.
Phat writes:
As for my reaction to your post, you bring up some good food for thought. I believe that the Bible is written for us today and not just to the audience of its time...but I don''t seek to make an idol out of it...if I can help it.
I agree that God speaks to us through the Bible, but in order to understand what is being said we have to understand what was intended. There is no sense in reading Jewish apocalyptic writings about political upheaval and using it for end times prophesy. We should read it to help us understand how to deal with evil in the world which is how it was intended.
Of course it has meaning for us in the 21st century but it is useless and maybe even horribly misleading of we don’t get the message that God intends us to have.
I gave an example of how Jesus came right out and said that was in the OT was wrong and not what God intended.
As Christians we are to idolize Jesus by following Him, but when we choose to follow an inerrant Bible then we have replaced Jesus with the Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 9:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 76 of 78 (790023)
08-23-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
08-23-2016 2:00 PM


Re: Credibility
Taq writes:
My parents gave me advice with clarity and yet I don't feel like I have been stripped of any choice. I can choose to follow their advice or not.
The advice from God is clear enough. As Jesus says, it is all about love. Read my signature. Understanding that is easy, it is actually putting into practice by loving sacrificially that is a lot harder. It is all about our hearts.
The ambiguity involves our religious beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 08-23-2016 2:00 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024