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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So it's all based on wishful thinking and fantasy.
No one knows in the critical thinking and reality-based logic of daily life....
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Not everything can be proven through evidence but this does not make it fantasy.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's pretty much the definition of fantasy.
Not everything can be proven through evidence but this does not make it fantasy.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Can you tell me how you can know you are communing with God and not a bad burrito? What are the tests? Mere Christianity writes: Granted, Lewis does not say that this is found only within Christians.
We all know what itfeels like to be prompted by instinct-by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires-one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides whichshould be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys. Mere Christianity writes: Lewis never mentions burritos, though if one only felt this way after eating one could be a test of sorts, I suppose. Strictly speaking, there are no such things as good and bad impulses. Think once again of a piano. It has not got two kinds of notes on it, the "right" notes and the "wrong" ones. mEvery single note is right at one time and wrong at another. The Moral Law is not any one instinct or any set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Read your quote.
Nowhere in that quote does C.S. Lewis suggest or say that is communing with God but rather what I call Jesus message, the calling, that we are compelled to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, protect the helpless... That Moral Law, the charge to do for others is entirely independent of spiritual beliefs and can be found in Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and atheists and agnostics and Satanists and Taoists and Shintoists and animists and pagans and garments and ancestors. That is entirely different than communing with God. So once again, how does someone know they are communing with God?My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
C.S. Lewis writes:
Lewis seems to think we need some external source to direct our instincts but in fact it's our social instincts directing our individual instincts that makes us "good people".
The Moral Law is not any one instinct or any set of instincts: it is something which makes a kind of tune (the tune we call goodness or right conduct) by directing the instincts.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lewis seems to think we break the rule all the time.
Mere Christianity writes: These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that humanbeings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in. That law certainly does not mean "what human beings, in fact, do"; for as I Thus Lewis supports the idea that we often(if not always) fail to do what we should do.said before, many of them do not obey this law at all, and none of them obey it completely. The law of gravity tells you what stones do if you drop them; but the Law of Human Nature tells you what human beings ought to do and do not. In other words, when you are dealing with humans, something else comes in above and beyond the actual facts. You have the facts (how men do behave) and you also have something else (how they ought to behave). In the rest of the universe there need not be anything but the facts. Lewis then supports my quote about chance being a myth.
Ever since men were able to think, they have been wondering what this universe really is and how it came to be there. And, very roughly, two views have been held. First, there is what is called the materialist view. People who take that view think that matter and space just happen to exist, and always have existed, nobody knows why; and that the matter, behaving in certain fixed ways, has just happened, by a sort of fluke, to produce creatures like ourselves who are able to think. By one chance in a thousand something hit our sun and made it produce the planets; and by another thousandth chance the chemicals necessary for life, and the right temperature, occurred on one of these planets, and so some of the matter on this earth came alive; and then, by a very long series of chances, the living creatures developed into things like us. The other view is the religious view. (*) According to it, what is behind the universe is more like a mind than it is like anything else we know. Regarding the law of right and wrong...even though we usually disobey it is there any chance that we won't? Does chance even enter into it??Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nobody disputes that. But we fail because - as I said - there's a conflict between our social instincts and our individual instincts. We want to save ourselves and at the same time we want to save our family. Thus Lewis supports the idea that we often(if not always) fail to do what we should do. In reality, problems are complex. There are no easy solutions. THAT is why we fail. No magical spook is going to change that.
Phat writes:
He "supports" it with nothing but ignorance and incredulity.
Lewis then supports my quote about chance being a myth.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo the contrarian writes: He "supports" it with nothing but ignorance and incredulity. If you would rather believe in chance over certainty, I might have to pray for you more often! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: If you would rather believe in chance over certainty, I might have to pray for you more often! There is a very high probability that many peoples certainty is just wishful thinking.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It isn't a question of chance "over" certainty. If there is ANY chance of something happening, no matter how small that chance is, then it is certain that it WILL happen, given enough time. You don't need a miracle to roll a seven; you just have to roll the dice until it happens.
If you would rather believe in chance over certainty....
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lewis was not an ignorant man and he explained the plausibility of Christianity much better than chance explains why we are the way we are.
Mere Christianity writes: So whats so incredulous about that? Oneof the things that surprised me when I first read the New Testament seriously was that it talked so much about a Dark Power in the universe-a mighty evil spirit who was held to be the Power behind death and disease, and sin. The difference is that Christianity thinks this Dark Power was created by God, and was good when he was created, and went wrong. Christianity agrees with Dualism that this universe is at war. But it does not think this is a war between independent powers. It thinks it is a civil war, a rebellion, and that we are living in a part of the universe occupied by the rebel. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Phat writes: Did you ever think that the dark power that Lewis talks about might just be us? So whats so incredulous about that? Edited by GDR, : ?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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The fruit of the Tree was the knowledge of Good but also Evil.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
No he didn't. He didn't "explain" it at all. He just repeated the same old tired platitudes.
... he explained the plausibility of Christianity much better than chance explains why we are the way we are. Phat writes:
If he thought a thousand to one was poor odds, he was ignorant of mathematics.
Lewis was not an ignorant man...
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