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Author | Topic: Presuppositionalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
The o/p implied that presuppositionalism is an issue only with religion. It's equally an issue with atheism. No, presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics. Not only do atheists do nothing like it, but to the best of my knowledge nor does any other religion.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Are you saying that atheists DON'T HAVE a naturalistic perspective from which they see and interpret the world? That they don't have a collection of beliefs about life and the universe? Each particular atheist obviously has a worldview, just as each particular disbeliever in the tooth fairy does. But this doesn't mean that all atheists or all disbelievers in the tooth fairy have the same worldview. You would not say, would you, that Ayn Rand had the same worldview as Karl Marx? But they were both atheists, and come to that, atoothfairyists.
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2415 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
I did realise that, afterwards. Then I felt icky and the cognitive dissonance kicked in. 😂
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
marc9000 writes:
I said that my unbelief in YOUR God is the same as YOUR unbelief in Odin. Atheism would be unbelief in EVERY god.
You were referring to YOUR UNBELIEF. Looks like atheism to me.
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Of course it is. Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position. The default position is that no Bigfeet exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. The default position is that Narnia doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. The default position is that France doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. Done. The default position is that no gods exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. And your presuppositions don't count as evidence.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I disagree with your assessment. There is no general consensus on thios position at all--except from the atheist/agnostic side. Bigfoot was clearly a story invention. Narnia is clearly a place created in a children's story.
France clearly exists. People don't have to go there to prove it. And Jesus is a well established belief for many hundreds of years. Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard. Evidence is not the gold standard among believers. Evidence is not the only standard. The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard. At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration. Belief. And Unbelief(or non-belief). No side gets to make up a default position. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined:
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Phat, brand new baby is born. Nothing is ever told to him about any religion. He grows up in an area with no religious iconography or stories. He has never been told about the concept of god. What is his default position on a god and religion?
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Evidence is not the gold standard among believers. Evidence is not the only standard. The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard. At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration. Belief. And Unbelief(or non-belief). No side gets to make up a default position. Of course there is a default position Phat. The default position is that something does not exist unless there is evidence that it does exist.
Phat writes: Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard.[/qs] And Jesus is a well established belief for many hundreds of years. And again, the evidence is that Jesus and even the Abrahamic Deity (Jews, Muslims and Christians) are both relatively newcomers when it comes to people believing in them. The Vedic deities certainly hold the right of precedence and even Buddhism is far older.
Phat writes: Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard. But evidence should always override beliefs.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
evidence should always override beliefs. And what if there is insufficient evidence? Are you saying belief should then be discouraged? See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. I believe this is a fatal error in human thinking. The Bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God". It never says that with out evidence it is impossible to prove God nor should that even be mixed with faith/belief. And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different. Quit trying to convince people that they made religion up. This is simply wrong.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: And what if there is insufficient evidence? Are you saying belief should then be discouraged? See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. I believe this is a fatal error in human thinking. There is no understanding other than human understanding. Belief is 100% human understanding. I have never said belief should be discouraged but it should be understood to be irrational, unreasonable and unsupportable beyond simply acknowledging it as a personal belief.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
And what if there is insufficient evidence? Are you saying belief should then be discouraged? See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. I believe this is a fatal error in human thinking. Do you have evidence for this belief?
The Bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God". It never says that with out evidence it is impossible to prove God nor should that even be mixed with faith/belief. And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different. Quit trying to convince people that they made religion up. Surely even you must think that most religions are made up?
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2415 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. We all do this on a daily basis to survive. You probably go to work rather than pray for food and your bills to be paid, no?You also likely eat dirty food, because of your human understanding. Your opinion on homosexuals is rather less 'fundie' than others, do you suppose that too, is due to your human understanding? We in the west do not stone adulterers. I'm sure you'll agree that we shouldn't, despite what the bible says. Possibly because of your human understanding.... I'm starting to see a pattern here.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Quit trying to convince people that they made religion up. This is simply wrong. Eh? But you believe every other religion but yours is false don't you? That thousands of made up belief systems. You know the argument - the default position is that yours is too until proven otherwise. Simply saying that you believe it is not persuasive.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
God is clearly a story invention. Even if there really is a God, the God you believe in is just a story.
Bigfoot was clearly a story invention. Narnia is clearly a place created in a children's story. Phat writes:
But you can go there. The observation of France is repeatable by anybody. The observation of God is not.
France clearly exists. People don't have to go there to prove it. Phat writes:
It should be.
Evidence is not the gold standard among believers. Phat writes:
Not really. Jesus Himself gave evidence when Thomas asked for it. The notion that faith/belief can take precedence is a scam fostered by priests for their own benefit.
The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard. Phat writes:
Nonsense. Belief is never anything but Plan B, a backup plan for when there is not enough evidence. At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration. Evidence IS the gold standard, the default position. Belief is never more than a poor substitute.
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No. It's entirely the same. Why would you think it's different?
And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different.
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