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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 142 (789873)
08-21-2016 4:07 PM


Presuppositionism like all apologetics is just silly.
The basic problems with Presuppositionalism rest in its basic foundation.
It starts with a fairly reasonable concept, that the basic suppositions color all subsequent conclusions.
But then it steps through the looking glass and left becomes right. It begins with the supposition that the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought, that the Bible is divine revelation, that one could not make sense of any human experience except through Christianity, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian.
Of course, by Christian they seem to mean those Christians that presuppose the same suppositions.
Naturalism on the other hand begins with the assumptions that reality and the universe are capable of being understood.
A simple refutation of Presuppositionalism is the fact that there are Christians who are not presuppositionalists and in fact Christians that think all of Calvinism can only be pitied.
Like Creationism, like Young Earth, like Floodists, Calvinism and Presuppositionalism should be tolerated as long as it does not try to impose itself on others but never taken seriously.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
Edited by jar, : Floodists not Foodists, foodists actually make sense
Edited by jar, : fix supposition of presuppositionalism

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 142 (789942)
08-22-2016 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
08-22-2016 1:35 PM


Re: Morality
And where is the problem with that? "It's turtles all the way down" works.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2016 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2016 1:59 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 142 (790124)
08-25-2016 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Riggamortis
08-25-2016 10:16 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Rigs writes:
There are three main paths to atheism, having never been indoctrinated and valuing evidence and reason above faith and belief is one, having been indoctrinated but deciding eventually that you value evidence and reason is another and finally, having been indoctrinated before becoming atheist out of pure rebellion.
I would add a fourth and perhaps far greater path and that is exposure to "THE TRUE Biblical Christianity". That is certainly a valid reason to become an atheist.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 10:16 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Riggamortis, posted 08-26-2016 2:11 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 53 of 142 (790265)
08-28-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-28-2016 3:49 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:
Evidence is not the gold standard among believers. Evidence is not the only standard. The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard. At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration. Belief. And Unbelief(or non-belief). No side gets to make up a default position.
Of course there is a default position Phat. The default position is that something does not exist unless there is evidence that it does exist.
Phat writes:
And Jesus is a well established belief for many hundreds of years.
Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard.[/qs]
And again, the evidence is that Jesus and even the Abrahamic Deity (Jews, Muslims and Christians) are both relatively newcomers when it comes to people believing in them. The Vedic deities certainly hold the right of precedence and even Buddhism is far older.
Phat writes:
Science only came advanced enough later to proclaim a construct that evidence was their gold standard.
But evidence should always override beliefs.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 3:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 55 of 142 (790272)
08-28-2016 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
And what if there is insufficient evidence? Are you saying belief should then be discouraged? See the problem is that you have taken logic, reason and reality and made human understanding higher than belief. I believe this is a fatal error in human thinking.
There is no understanding other than human understanding. Belief is 100% human understanding. I have never said belief should be discouraged but it should be understood to be irrational, unreasonable and unsupportable beyond simply acknowledging it as a personal belief.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 69 of 142 (790484)
08-30-2016 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
08-30-2016 6:43 PM


the God of scripture is a fantasy
Phat writes:
Because for one thing the human mind likely would never have invented the God of scripture.
Except Phat, there really is no God of scripture. There are a whole bunch of different characteristics describing the God character found in scripture and the nature of the character changes with the intent, imagination, mythos and culture of the authors and editors and redactors.
The evidence is overwhelming that the so called God of scripture is absolutely a human invention.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:41 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 3:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 73 of 142 (790522)
08-31-2016 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
08-31-2016 3:01 AM


Re: the God of scripture is a fantasy
Phat writes:
What about Jesus? Who do you say He is?
Yes, you claim He was human while on earth.
Yes, you claim that He is (so far) a failed messiah.
Yet you claim the Nicene Creed.
So now that GOD raised Him from the dead, who is He to you?
A personal belief and not anything I can explain to someone else.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 142 (819876)
09-14-2017 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:23 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
I would argue that people who stand for the faith rather than waffle on it like an armchair quarterback are themselves evidence of perseverance at least.
It is evidence of how they behave but not evidence of anything else.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:33 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 142 (819884)
09-14-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:33 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Thus...ones behavior is evidence of internal and intestinal fortitude at least.
Nonsense. It is only evidence of what is done.
Phat writes:
I would argue that strong positive behavior and character are evidence that God exists through some people. There are many recent examples in stories from the virgin islands and other devastated places...where individual actions of altruism and comfort beyond the norm were observed. These people have God in them whether they are aware of it or not.
Again, nonsense. It is not evidence of God but only evidence of what they do.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 142 (826485)
01-02-2018 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 2:57 PM


Sorry but that is all nothing but word salad of no nutritional value.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-02-2018 2:57 PM AlexCaledin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-02-2018 3:36 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 142 (826494)
01-02-2018 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
01-02-2018 4:28 PM


Re: Prophecy for America
Phat writes:
jar always says that, Alex.
Not always; only when utter complete nonsense is posted, crap with absolutely no meaning designed solely to con the rubes.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 4:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 135 of 142 (826514)
01-03-2018 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
01-03-2018 9:21 AM


Re: How Can An Orthodox Guy be a Con?
But what you quoted is really just another example of the utter dishonesty that is the basis of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
The truth is that the only people placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind are the inerrant Biblical Christians. Anyone so dishonest as to actually make the assertion you quoted should only be met by loud laughter and then anyone that did not check their brain at the door getting up and walking out.
Not only is a total lie, it is also really, really stupid and can only be tolerated by folk who decide to believe utter nonsense.
Look at it again but this time actually read it and see the obvious absurdities presented.
quote:
It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind rather than in divine revelation that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. We Orthodox Christians living in the West must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust to our thoughts.
It is conmen like say stupid stuff like that that trust their own thoughts. The man is simply such an accomplished liar that he can as easily lie to himself as to any audience.
Far from refusing to trust his thoughts he even subjugates reality to his thoughts.
Does he realize he is simply lying? Hopefully not. That does not change the fact that all of his belief systems are founded on dishonesty.
The skeptic on the other hand starts from the basic premise that the formulations of their minds are not to be trusted unless and until they can be verified against reality and then to acknowledge that any such trust is only tentative.
That is why so many Orthodox guys are cons, the very basic assumption of orthodoxy assures that it must be a false position.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 01-03-2018 9:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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