Original Sin - Scripture and Reason

I agree with Modulous...this is a grand topic! As we discuss this idea of "Original Sin" lets first of all define what we mean by original. I see it as meaning that its "human nature" to sin. In other words, its easier to be greedy than it is to be generous. Its easier to say that the toy is mine than it is to share. etc..etc..Sinc e this is in Faith/Belief rather than Bible Study, I think that we should wax philosophic and use our "human nature" to discuss these ideas. For some of us, God exists and is a sort of super conscious authority figure in our minds. Jar usually points out that one of Gods gifts to humanity was to give us the knowledge of right and wrong and that it is our responsibility to do right and to try and do our best and admit when we are wrong,,,correcting our behavior as we go along. Indeed, humanity still has wars, still is greedy, selfish, and appears to not really be improving in regards to loving ones neighbor as oneself. I always liked Dawkins. Though many Christians would maintain that we really don't have the power to choose good unless we accept Jesus(the one whom knew no sin) and thus become in communion with God and, like a beacon on a lighthouse, again able to see our way through the fog of unlimited options. Is it important for us to understand God or merely to understand ourselves? Can we understand ourselves without bothering to accept Jesus?

From a fundamentalist Christian standpoint, humans will observe and plan to advance their own offspring and interests and compete against others. Problem is, those who "accept" Jesus also behave rather badly, doing the same thing that the "unsaved" do and advancing their own families interests and those "in the club" while ignoring the pagans.It has been established before that there is no real difference behaviorally between "saved" and "unsaved people. Some groups are altruistic, loving, and sharing while others are competitive capitalists who see no need to give away anything that can't be written off the taxes.

Keep in mind that this topic is in Faith&Belief. We can legitimately ask if humans have a basic propensity to be selfish, greedy, and think of themselves before they think of their neighbor. And yet, jar, think of our discussions concerning the American Indians and of how the US wont fully honor the old treaties. I am willing to bet that if everyone were asked to vote on it, we would still never give them what we allegedly owe them, even if we legally had to do so. My point is that people look out for their own interests over those of others, when it comes to the land beneath our feet or the house in which we own. We are naturally more selfish than we are selfless.

In telling us about all your boy scout good deeds, it appears that you think you have earned a "right thing to do" button. I doubt God would be impressed, though you can have a hidden pride in that you believe that you have transcended the basic animal nature of humans.

yes, and you have no Holy Spirit either. God never indwells you, you rise to the standard demanded of you and try and do your very best.No selfish motives there, right? And yet.....

*sighs* no, no evidence possible, thus I respectfully withdraw the inference.

Do you look down on people who use excuses for not going that extra sacrificial mile and trying hardest to do their best? Would it surprise you if God gave people a break who never earned it?Would you ignore such a God?Would you cling to your sense of honor and duty even to the point of never admitting that you could have a speck in your eye and therefore were as guilty as the slacker with a beam in their eye?

Do you believe that if your leg was hurting quite a bit that day that you could ask to be excused from your duty...without sinning as a result of not trying or sacrificing enough?

The subject of Original Sin has been discussed quite often here at EvC, and I saw GDRs topic as one of the few still open on the subject. This particular post has nothing to do with memes or selfish genes, however. So God has done nothing in terms of changing people(Saul became Paul) in terms of intervening in protection of Israel, for example...in any way ever?
I suppose we cant prove it...but I still dont think evidence should be the only standard in support of Christianity...and if so, let the Christians themselves be the evidence.The idea that Jesus paid for our sin is a strong one...I wouldn't throw it away quite yet.

Did Paul originate this message? If so, it would be hard to indict it---Paul was a Godly man.

I see your point...but am still wary of some of your teachings...after all, you have indicted God Himself before. My question is Who,if anyone is qualified to be a judge?We are charged to be responsible..OK I get that.But if the Judge Himself is fair game for indictment, Who is the ultimate authority?Paul says that no one is righteous. That all have fallen short. One commentary: Thus...to indict a godly man requires that we first examine our own behavior...amend it...and live properly before exercising judgement against Paul or anyone else.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

sorry...stop and think. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen...in deed the Creator of Reality itself...to be judged by His own creation?Im not asking you to tell me what the stories say..(according to your interpretation at least) im asking you to tell me what sense it makes for the Creator to be judged by what He has created?Also why?What possible reason would He have had to set it up that way?

You say you are a Creedal Christian. Tell me how the Creator of all seen and unseen can fail.

this makes no sense...for mere humans to judge God as failing...seems to me that WE are the ones deceived...I can understand us honestly reading the stories and judging from that information alone...but IF God really is the Creator of all seen and unseen, He is not simply some bumbling rookie on his first day on the job!I try and look at the big picture...honestly. I talk with lots of people having many different beliefs. I get why people dont like most fundies. I understand the arguments that the secular web presents...many of which are well thought out logical arguments, though the common denominator seems to be that some people can easily be convinced that God does not exist...at least as portrayed in the Bible. Others of us claim to have had subjective experiences and have rightly or wrongly convinced ourselves of the reality of God...When I meet people on the internet such as you,Ms. Asgara...I sense a grand humanity to your life and no longer objectify you as one of "them"....and I prayed when you got cancer...I genuinely want you to live---and live eternally in some way or another. I guess its too much for me to hope that everyone sees life the way I see it...perhaps we were never meant to agree...I dunno... I just dont understand how you and jar jar can so casually dismiss any God of scripture...especially him since he claims to be a creedal christian. Of course, maybe you hope against hope that I see the light the way you understand it...so in conclusion, have a great week!

I have never claimed to switch back and forth. I'll go with the Absolute. Or a you call it---the woo. I'll also agree that the Bible simply reflects stories of how humans relate to this woo. Of how this woo is personal. Of how this Super God was made man. Of how this man lived among us.