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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 7 of 142 (789938)
08-22-2016 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
08-22-2016 12:41 PM


Re: Morality
It's just a different version of the uncaused cause. "Because He's God" is supposed to put a stop to the infinite regress.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-22-2016 12:41 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:43 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 10 of 142 (789947)
08-22-2016 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
08-22-2016 1:43 PM


Re: Morality
jar writes:
And where is the problem with that? "It's turtles all the way down" works.
Works for me too.
Back in April I visited a temple in Vietnam and saw loads of sacred turtle statues carrying all sorts of stuff on their backs. Apparently that's where Pratchet - may the Lord bless him and praise him - got the idea.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:43 PM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 11 of 142 (789952)
08-22-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
08-22-2016 1:43 PM


Re: Morality
Phat writes:
Ive got one for you, Tangle--
Oh, Phat, your naivity knows no bounds. Those are really childish and ignorant arguments.
The 'law' of cause and effect works for all normal everyday purposes but breaks when things get very small or at singularities - like what we think occurred at the 'big bang'. No one knows what happened just before that - and the term 'before' probably doesn't mean anything at that point.
What makes my head explode is not the pig ignorant silly argument like those in your video, its trying to understand what those researching quantum and 'big' physics are finding out about our universe. It's quite beyond the vast majority of us. Which is why the ignorant will always find really dumb, simplistic argument persuasive.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 19 of 142 (790110)
08-25-2016 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
08-25-2016 3:33 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:
Except that God is something (or someOne) that cannot be proven in the scientific meaning of the term. You guys keep demanding evidence and using lack of same to justify your un belief! What else am I supposed to say?
Why Phat? The bible is stuffed full of god's interventions in the real world. Religious belief relies on these - prayer, resurectons, transubstantiations - miracles of all sorts -whatever. Science can examine these and find this evidence should it exist. But whenever it has tried, it's been shown to be bollox.
When it comes to reason itself, the bottom line is that God is not reasonable in the strict critical thinking meaning of the term.
Not open to evidence or reason. It's a bloody wonder anyone believes it....
And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced--indeed reassured---that God is a myth.
Nope. Yet again, you're applying your own thinking to people without your belief system. If you've never heard of 'Him' you can neither accept nor reject him. If you're like me, the concept of 'needing Him' is laughable. I've tried to tell you this before in many different ways, but you keep coming out with the same stuff that shows you just can't grasp it.
To me your Christian god is almost identical to Father Christmas - a totally invented human story. Maybe you can keep that simple explanation in your head. I'm pretty sure you feel the same way about Santa, so next time you try to explain our disbelief, bear it in mind that you don't feel a need to belief in Father Christmas.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 3:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 4:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 21 of 142 (790112)
08-25-2016 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
08-25-2016 4:43 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:
Quite simply you have been lied to. Dont ask me to explain who lied to you....you wouldnt begin to believe it anyway.
Yes, I've been lied to about God and lied to about Santa. Both for decent reasons. But I'm not letting you joke it off - otherwise you'll spout your nonsense the next time.
Do you understand what I'm saying when I say that Jesus and Santa are the same to me? If you do, you won't keep making the same mistaken inerpretation.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 4:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 23 of 142 (790114)
08-25-2016 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
08-25-2016 5:06 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:
Yes, in a way. But didn't you once believe in Jesus as an adult? Very few adults believe in Santa.
No, I 'saw the light' when I was 14.
That's the only real difference.
Yikes, what an admission!
Ignoring that amazing statement, keep in mind that that's how atheists feel about it - the same way you do about Father Christmas. It's no more complicated than that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:37 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 28 of 142 (790129)
08-26-2016 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
08-25-2016 5:37 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:
But first, just as I dont know how you think, you cant say in a blanket statement that you know how atheists think. Surely you all dont think alike, after all. You can only know what YOU think.
We don't all think alike but we share a common non-belief. It's the non-belief that makes us atheists. That's a non-belief in gods. That's all it is. You don't need to try to make it relevant to any of the tropes of your beliefs.
And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced?
Just like you never think about how you don't 'need' the gods of the Hindus atheists don't 'need' yours or anyone elses. It's an absense of something that was never there - think Santa.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 5:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 35 of 142 (790182)
08-27-2016 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by marc9000
08-26-2016 8:27 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
marc writes:
I think it would be most important to realize that every worldview has presuppositions, including atheism.
Always the same mistake. Atheism is an absense of a religious worldview - it's no more a worldview than a disbelief in the tooth fairies is.
If we lived in a world where no-one had invented a god, atheism wouldn't even have a name. If there is a presupposition for atheism, it's that others supposed that a god exists.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:27 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 8:59 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 44 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2016 9:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 37 of 142 (790188)
08-27-2016 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-27-2016 8:59 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:
Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position.
And your case only holds water if Gods do exist. We have to choose the most parsimonious.
No supernatural entities is the null hypothesis. It's that way around because the appearance of a single one disproves it. If it were otherwise we'd have default positions for everything from hob goblins to spaghetti monsters.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 8:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 9:43 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 41 of 142 (790197)
08-27-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
08-27-2016 9:43 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
[qs=Phat]Essentially, is what you are saying then is that that evidence is the default position rather than belief?[qs] Without evidence all you can do is waffle - as now. So yes, it's always best to have a hypothesis that can be tested.
I see the logic, but disagree with the idea that belief is by necessity defined as relative.
Belief is relative to what?
This god idea that you can invent something that can't be tested, then claim that it's the natural position against which other things must be compared is daft from any angle.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 9:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 1:55 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 58 of 142 (790289)
08-29-2016 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Quit trying to convince people that they made religion up. This is simply wrong.
Eh? But you believe every other religion but yours is false don't you? That thousands of made up belief systems. You know the argument - the default position is that yours is too until proven otherwise. Simply saying that you believe it is not persuasive.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 62 of 142 (790424)
08-30-2016 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
08-29-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Because there is One God that is not created nor imagined. He is the uncaused first cause.All of the rest have been created/imagined. I suppose you will demand evidence....
Do you think that chanting ritualised propaganda like that is of any use at all outside your church?
When my chemistry teacher chanted the party line that burning hydrogen in oxygen made water, I could check it out myself, but when you guys repeat the stuff you were taught like nursery rhymes do you really expect us to find them anything but laughable?
Particularly when you fail time and time again to address the arguments you've been given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 11:24 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 72 of 142 (790520)
08-31-2016 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
08-30-2016 11:24 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
The arguments are your problem, not mine.
The arguments are what we're supposed to be here for, if you're not going to take them on, you might as well be in your church on your knees.
Why are you here?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 11:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 10:11 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 76 of 142 (790571)
09-01-2016 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
08-31-2016 10:11 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Because it gets lonely just staying in church praying for people.
How can you be lonely with your God?
Maybe he's not there?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 10:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 1:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 83 of 142 (790665)
09-03-2016 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
09-01-2016 1:16 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
I wont personally believe in evidence of absence as you apparently were eager to do.
I know the bumper sticker 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is very popular here but it's total bullshit.
If you haven't looked inside a room it is impossible to know whether there's anything in there. You have no evidence. If you've opened the door and had a jolly good look, you now know.
If you say to me that there's a table in there but it's invisible and because we have no way of detecting it it's not evidence of absence, I'm calling bullshit. You can believe in the table if you want but I'm saying that your deluded. And I have evidence.
I wont allow my belief to follow evidence.
That's a good definition of a delusion.
Perhaps I am more eager for him to exist than you are. In fact I think I am.
Of course you are, you need to believe. Many people do. They're frightened of what it would mean if their god didn't exist. Faith actually wants the world to tumble into chaos to confirm her belief that she is saved. It's all very worrying that adults can't seem to deal with the responsibility of leading a good life for it's own sake.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 1:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:19 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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