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Author Topic:   Original Sin - Scripture and Reason
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 180 of 203 (790465)
08-30-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Phat
10-22-2014 2:16 AM


Re: Trying to summarize
Phat writes:
Would it surprise you if God gave people a break who never earned it?
Matthew 25.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 2:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 192 of 203 (790544)
08-31-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
08-31-2016 2:37 AM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:
... IF God really is the Creator of all seen and unseen, He is not simply some bumbling rookie on his first day on the job!
The God of the Bible clearly IS a bumbling rookie - or a vicious bastard who couldn't care less about the suffering of his creation.
You need to get your story straight. Either your God is some woo-woo fantastic Super-God or he's the goober in the Bible. You can't just keep switching back and forth at your convenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 2:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 194 of 203 (790605)
09-01-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
09-01-2016 12:22 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:
I have never claimed to switch back and forth.
I didn't say you claimed it. I'm saying that you do it.
Phat writes:
I'll also agree that the Bible simply reflects stories of how humans relate to this woo. Of how this woo is personal. Of how this Super God was made man. Of how this man lived among us.
There you go again. Are the stories "news" or are they just stories?
Is there any point to the stories beyond merely recording daily events? Do they have any value beyond wrapping fish?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 3:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 196 of 203 (790648)
09-02-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Phat
09-01-2016 3:17 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:
Jesus is telling Peter that Peters revelation as to who Jesus was was not found in some story of human derived legend.
But the Gospel of Matthew itself is a story of human derived legend. Sure, it's self-consistent but is it consistent with reality? What "value" does the story have unless it can be related to reality in some way? How does Jesus being the "Son of the living God" actually relate to reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 3:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 09-02-2016 1:01 PM ringo has replied
 Message 199 by GDR, posted 09-02-2016 2:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 198 of 203 (790651)
09-02-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
09-02-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:
Depends which reality you choose to accept.
I should be more specific. I mean "reality" in the objective sense. What we can all agree on is "reality". Trees are reality. Weather is reality.
Phat writes:
How does God relate to reality?
By this definition, He doesn't.
Phat writes:
But what if you have no evidence?
As I've already said, if you have no evidence you're entitled to any hare-brained opinion you like. But what makes your hare-brained opinion superior to somebody else's hare-brained opinion?
Phat writes:
Furthermore what if evidence itself is not enough for you to worship God?
How could there be evidence for us to worship God? If there was incontrovertible evidence that God existed, what on earth would that have to do with worshipping Him?
Phat writes:
You may say that He is portrayed as a cruel uncaring tyrant. If so, why would it matter if there was evidence of his existence?
Huh? Isn't a real tyrant worse than an imaginary one? if you tell me there's an imminent danger that could destroy most of the people I know, don't you think I'd want to know whether it was real or imaginary?
Phat writes:
You would still reserve that little throne in your brain...where you sit, and pass judgment on Him.
You're passing judgement the same as I am. The only difference is that you're finding Him innocent, despite the testimony that you yourself give to His guilt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 09-02-2016 1:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 200 of 203 (790683)
09-03-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by GDR
09-02-2016 2:27 PM


Re: Son of God
GDR writes:
If there is no resurrection then Jesus is simply a delusional human who in spite of that still came up with a nice message of peace and love.
I don't even believe that Jesus existed but your attitude really grates on me. If He did exist, why couldn't He just be a wise man who was misunderstood and/or misrepresented? If somebody worships Tom Hanks as the saviour of mankind, does that make Tom Hanks delusional?
GDR writes:
If this is the case, then the reality is that we do have a God and we are called to take His message as embodied by Jesus to heart, and base our lives on His message of love, peace, forgiveness, truth, kindness, charity etc, and to take that message to the world.
But why do you need a god to give you that message when other people seem to get the same message without any resurrection, even without any god at all? How is the resurrection related to reality when others get the same reality without the resurrection? You're just adding an unnecessary subjective element to reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by GDR, posted 09-02-2016 2:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 09-03-2016 2:52 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 202 by GDR, posted 09-05-2016 12:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 203 of 203 (790835)
09-06-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by GDR
09-05-2016 12:30 PM


Re: Son of God
GDR writes:
Tom Hanks isn’t going around making messianic claims or saying that he can forgive sin on God’s behalf.
That isn't what I said. I said that if somebody believed Tom Hanks was the Messiah, they would be delusional, not him.
GDR writes:
If Jesus was simply a good man it would make more sense to be followers of Gandhi who preached a similar message and it didn’t make all of those claims about himself.
I agree. It does make more sense to follow Gandhi.
GDR writes:
The other aspect of Christianity though is all about the resurrection and is what differentiates Christianity form all other faiths.
It's what makes Christianity worse than other faiths - the need for God incarnate to be the example when we have better examples like Gandhi (who never destroyed the earth with a flood). And the need for that incarnation to die and resurrect is just bizarre and unnecessary.
GDR writes:
The resurrection shows us that our lives have ultimate meaning and an eternal purpose.
Another strike against it. "Ultimate meaning and purpose", if it means anything at all, is just an excuse for avoiding our real meaning and purpose which is earthly, not heavenly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by GDR, posted 09-05-2016 12:30 PM GDR has not replied

  
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