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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 76 of 123 (790571)
09-01-2016 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
08-31-2016 10:11 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Because it gets lonely just staying in church praying for people.

How can you be lonely with your God?

Maybe he's not there?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 10:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 1:16 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 77 of 123 (790602)
09-01-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
08-31-2016 11:37 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
I am not a moral relativist. Relativism is a poison in the intellectual arena. What makes me think mine is the right one? Because I believe in an absolute. I dont buy into this idea that what is right for you is on you and what is right for the next guy is up to him.

Relativism makes each of us responsible for deciding what is right and judges no one on their choice....but ultimately I believe there is an absolute standard upon which all relative judgments and decisions will be measured against.

Do I know whether I have the inside info on this absolute standard? No. Do I believe that I do? Yes. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But There is an absolute.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 08-31-2016 11:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 09-01-2016 12:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 123 (790604)
09-01-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
09-01-2016 12:19 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

What makes me think mine is the right one? Because I believe in an absolute. I dont buy into this idea that what is right for you is on you and what is right for the next guy is up to him.


Who said anything about morality? I asked why you think your god is the right one out of thousands of possibilities. The correct one, the "truth". Morality doesn't enter into it.

Phat writes:

I am not a moral relativist.


I bet you are - but we can discuss that in an appropriate topic.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 79 of 123 (790609)
09-01-2016 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
09-01-2016 6:12 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
I like people. Only a monk is content to just be with God....I guess i'm not a monk.

Anyway...steering back towards this topic of Presuppositionalism...
I can see the logic that your views have that mine don't...and though you are correct in that there is absence of evidence, I wont personally believe in evidence of absence as you apparently were eager to do. I will agree that for the purposes of a logical argument you have won, I wont allow my belief to follow evidence. It is sheer folly to think that human wisdom is superior to any concept of a God. Ringo seems to think that evidence should be the "gold standard" in concluding any argument...but to simply say--as you are eager to do---that He doesn't exist is not my style. Perhaps I am more eager for him to exist than you are. In fact I think I am.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2016 6:12 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 09-01-2016 1:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2016 2:28 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 80 of 123 (790610)
09-01-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
09-01-2016 1:16 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Ringo seems to think that evidence should be the "gold standard" in concluding any argument...


I find it bizarre that you would question that. If there is evidence, it IS the gold standard. It's the ONLY standard. How can you deny that?

And if there is no evidence, then one empty opinion is as good as another.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 1:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 3:24 PM ringo has responded
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:23 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 81 of 123 (790613)
09-01-2016 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
09-01-2016 1:21 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
If there is evidence, it IS the gold standard. It's the ONLY standard. How can you deny that?
And if there is no evidence, then one empty opinion is as good as another.
Perhaps. But after all is said and done, it is only your opinion that can matter or be of any value to you. I would argue that my opinion--my belief---is as much of a standard to me as anything else.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 09-01-2016 1:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 09-02-2016 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 82 of 123 (790647)
09-02-2016 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
09-01-2016 3:24 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

But after all is said and done, it is only your opinion that can matter or be of any value to you.


Ever hear of democracy? Other people's opinions can definitely have an effect on you. And more to the point, fundies often think they are being persecuted for their religious opinions.

So it might be worth your while to have a look at reality instead of just wrapping yourself in your own opinions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 3:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


(4)
Message 83 of 123 (790665)
09-03-2016 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
09-01-2016 1:16 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

I wont personally believe in evidence of absence as you apparently were eager to do.

I know the bumper sticker 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' is very popular here but it's total bullshit.

If you haven't looked inside a room it is impossible to know whether there's anything in there. You have no evidence. If you've opened the door and had a jolly good look, you now know.

If you say to me that there's a table in there but it's invisible and because we have no way of detecting it it's not evidence of absence, I'm calling bullshit. You can believe in the table if you want but I'm saying that your deluded. And I have evidence.

I wont allow my belief to follow evidence.

That's a good definition of a delusion.

Perhaps I am more eager for him to exist than you are. In fact I think I am.

Of course you are, you need to believe. Many people do. They're frightened of what it would mean if their god didn't exist. Faith actually wants the world to tumble into chaos to confirm her belief that she is saved. It's all very worrying that adults can't seem to deal with the responsibility of leading a good life for it's own sake.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 1:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:19 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 84 of 123 (819872)
09-14-2017 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
09-03-2016 2:28 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
If you haven't looked inside a room it is impossible to know whether there's anything in there. You have no evidence. If you've opened the door and had a jolly good look, you now know.

If you say to me that there's a table in there but it's invisible...I'm calling bullshit. You can believe in the table if you want but I'm saying that you're deluded. And I have evidence.

Except we are not talking about a room. We are talking about two vast regions that are largely unexplored---the universe itself and/or the human mind.

Now I grant that your arguments make logical sense, by and large. All I am saying is that the issue is far from evident. There are too many loose ends.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2016 2:28 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 85 of 123 (819875)
09-14-2017 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
09-01-2016 1:21 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
ringo writes:

If there is evidence, it IS the gold standard. It's the ONLY standard. How can you deny that?
And if there is no evidence, then one empty opinion is as good as another.

Granted many believers have empty opinions, but some of their opinions are backed by real world experience.. such as living through a hurricane or being persecuted for the faith in another country. I would argue that people who stand for the faith rather than waffle on it like an armchair quarterback are themselves evidence of perseverance at least.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 09-01-2016 1:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 09-14-2017 7:25 PM Phat has responded
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:37 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29743
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 86 of 123 (819876)
09-14-2017 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:23 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

I would argue that people who stand for the faith rather than waffle on it like an armchair quarterback are themselves evidence of perseverance at least.

It is evidence of how they behave but not evidence of anything else.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:33 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 87 of 123 (819883)
09-14-2017 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
09-14-2017 7:25 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Have you not said that Christianity is about what you do? Thus...ones behavior is evidence of internal and intestinal fortitude at least. Tangle seems to think that God is absent. I would argue that strong positive behavior and character are evidence that God exists through some people. There are many recent examples in stories from the virgin islands and other devastated places...where individual actions of altruism and comfort beyond the norm were observed. These people have God in them whether they are aware of it or not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 09-14-2017 7:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 09-14-2017 7:43 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2017 3:01 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29743
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 88 of 123 (819884)
09-14-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:33 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Thus...ones behavior is evidence of internal and intestinal fortitude at least.

Nonsense. It is only evidence of what is done.

Phat writes:

I would argue that strong positive behavior and character are evidence that God exists through some people. There are many recent examples in stories from the virgin islands and other devastated places...where individual actions of altruism and comfort beyond the norm were observed. These people have God in them whether they are aware of it or not.

Again, nonsense. It is not evidence of God but only evidence of what they do.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 89 of 123 (819907)
09-15-2017 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:33 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:

Thus...ones behavior is evidence of internal and intestinal fortitude at least. Tangle seems to think that God is absent. I would argue that strong positive behavior and character are evidence that God exists through some people. There are many recent examples in stories from the virgin islands and other devastated places...where individual actions of altruism and comfort beyond the norm were observed. These people have God in them whether they are aware of it or not.

Oh Phat......

People acting to help other people is no more evidence of god than bees helping other bees is. It's part of our programming - we find it hard NOT to help.

If you want evidence of the absence of god it's right there in the hurricane itself.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:14 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 90 of 123 (819957)
09-15-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
09-15-2017 3:01 AM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Tangle writes:

If you want evidence of the absence of god it's right there in the hurricane itself.

Only because the hypothetical god does not behave as you determine He should behave. So at best the evidence is subjective. I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2017 3:01 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:42 PM Phat has responded
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2017 12:43 PM Phat has responded

  
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