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Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Perhaps but it is supported by reality.
Jesus is neither an envelope or a message? Envelopes are not messages. Even if that were true saying the envelope was the message still gives absolutely no information about what the message was.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Jesus was the envelope that contained the Creators message. Chew on that one awhile. Word salad. Means nothing.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That would be a postcard. If there's an envelope with a letter inside, it would be foolish to throw away the letter and "obey" the envelope. Could it be that the envelope and the message are the same thing? The envelope might have some value - but do you really need a return address when the sender is omniscient? Is a Heaven postmark more valuable than a Nirvana postmark?
Phat writes:
I think you're the one who needs to chew on that analogy.
Jesus was the envelope that contained the Creators message.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The sticking point hinges around the need for the message.(Original Sin or nah?)
It also hinges on whether an omnipotent messenger would need a unique envelope to reach a planet. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Did Jesus bring a message of Original Sin? The sticking point hinges around the need for the message.(Original Sin or nah?) Or did He bring a message that we already had? According to Paul, the message is already written on our hearts:
quote: Phat writes:
It tends to shoot omnipotence in the foot, doesn't it?
It also hinges on whether an omnipotent messenger would need a unique envelope to reach a planet.
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Hawkins Member (Idle past 1401 days) Posts: 150 From: Hong Kong Joined: |
Wow, what a revived thread. You should now see how ridiculous the OP questions are.
Empirical evidence is only available provided that you can physically go there to gather the evidence. Science is based on experiments and observations which can only be done inside our physical realm that we can reach. It is thus out of our current capability to explore what lying outside our time-space we are living in. It is however fallacious to draw the conclusion that nothing can exist outside the reach of our science.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Have you actually read the OP?
It's about the difference between theists who claim that their beliefs are as much the result of of physical evidence as anything else (e.g. Biblical Creationists) and believers who base their beliefs on subjective feelings, experiences etc. But things seem to have moved on somewhat from that in the intervening years.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Actually I think that is the crux of most of my religious debates here at EvC.
My opponents demand objective evidence. This is a logical request, but it has been brought up that there is no way to test of verify the supernatural--apart from any unique effects that it would have on testable things. Ringo brought up the point that he routinely tests what everybody says---and that it is expected for us to do so. I must be one who goes more with subjective feelings and that whole side of the argument. I feel that evidence is only necessary in the mind of the believer and that people can call me delusional or living in fantasy all they want. I have reasons for my beliefs and yet I appreciate the arguments presented here at EvC as they cause me to think outside my own box.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Just to be clear, it doesn't have to be one or the other, objective or subjective. I have had friends who can't be trusted to be objectively factual. That doesn't prevent me from subjectively wanting them as friends. Ringo brought up the point that he routinely tests what everybody says---and that it is expected for us to do so. I must be one who goes more with subjective feelings and that whole side of the argument. The Bible is another example. It is objectively false in many areas, yet I subjectively value it more than many True Believers do.
Phat writes:
I just wish you'd stop calling it evidence when it isn't. Allow me to repeat my tautology: Evidence must be evident.
I feel that evidence is only necessary in the mind of the believer....
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Taq Member Posts: 10077 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat writes: My opponents demand objective evidence. This is a logical request, but it has been brought up that there is no way to test of verify the supernatural--apart from any unique effects that it would have on testable things. From my experiences, the only reason that theists claim that the supernatural can not be verified by objective evidence is that they don't have any objective evidence for the supernatural. If we start with no assumptions, I see see no reason why the supernatural would not produce objective evidence. What we have are claims that are indistinguishable from something that is made up.
I must be one who goes more with subjective feelings and that whole side of the argument. I feel that evidence is only necessary in the mind of the believer and that people can call me delusional or living in fantasy all they want. Speaking as an atheist, I can completely respect that. Life is too short, and who am I to tell you what to believe. Much of the friction between the theist and atheist camps is due to history. Atheists have long been the minority, and many theists have acted as if atheists don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to a reasoned position. Us atheists do think we have a good argument for our position, and thus the debate rages on. However, I also think it is worth mentioning that we atheists (or at least a massive majority of atheists) celebrate your freedom to believe as you wish, and would defend your right to be a theist. I think this point is often clouded over in heated discussions.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I see no reason why the supernatural would not produce objective evidence. 1) We would have no faith if we had evidence. God wants us to have faith. 2) It would give no one the freedom to disbelieve. Its rather hard to disbelieve when the evidence can be replicated before your eyes by anyone or even by yourself.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Depends whether you want to communicate with the sender or not. The envelope might have some value - but do you really need a return address when the sender is omniscient? You know the old saying: Don't shoot the messenger! Apparently folks did. They didn't want to hear from home...they wanted to be ambitious orphans who could make it on their own. Perhaps they had a mental block where they thought they were orphans to begin with.
I just wish you'd stop calling it evidence when it isn't. Allow me to repeat my tautology: Evidence must be evident. Perhaps thats why it isnt evident to some folks. Edited by Phat, : added sentenceChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: 1) We would have no faith if we had evidence. God wants us to have faith. That's just wrong. 1. He apparently wasn't at all shy of providing evidence for thousands of years, parting seas, sending plagues, burning bushes, curing people, resurrecting people, changing water into wine, feeding 5,000 people with a loaf and a fish etc etc. It's only when people worked out ways of testing stuff objectively that this 'evidence' ceased. 2. According to you guys, he 'reveals' himself to you. You call that evidence. You repeatedly tell us that you KNOW he exists for this reason. He's some weird contradictions ain't he? 3. He wants me to have faith in what? Why would I choose your god instead of somebody else's without evidence? How can the child born into a remote village in the Atlas Mountains have faith in your god when he's never heard of him? It makes no sense.
2) It would give no one the freedom to disbelieve. Its rather hard to disbelieve when the evidence can be replicated before your eyes by anyone or even by yourself. 1. And the down side of that would be what? That we'd all believe and follow his teaching? You know, like he wants?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
2) It would give no one the freedom to disbelieve. Its rather hard to disbelieve when the evidence can be replicated before your eyes by anyone or even by yourself. tangle writes: The downside is that you would have no free will to reject Him. And the down side of that would be what? That we'd all believe and follow his teaching? You know, like he wants? When belief is eliminated as an option, we end up with what we get. Of course you can say that im clinging to belief because accepting evidence would kill my faith. I would say that clinging to the "obvious" kills your freedom. Its better to freely accept or reject. Facts rob us of free will.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: The downside is that you would have no free will to reject Him.When belief is eliminated as an option, we end up with what we get. Nothing changes about free will because of evidence - people can reject evidence, we see Faith do it here every day.
Of course you can say that im clinging to belief because accepting evidence would kill my faith. I would say that clinging to the "obvious" kills your freedom. That's just silly. You can believe that a fire will burn you with or without evidence. Sticking your hand in the fire merely confirms it. The facts exist whether you believe in them or not.
Its better to freely accept or reject. Facts rob us of free will. That's utter nonsense, facts are just facts - truths about our world. Not having facts allows us to think stupid things, having them at least gives us a chance of believing the right things. The idea that knowing truths about our world robs us of free will is the most bizarre thing I've heard you say. ABE Doesn't the fact that god has revealed himself to you personally rob you of your free will to believe in him without evidence? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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