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Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 106 of 113 (769296)
09-18-2015 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
09-18-2015 12:45 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
If the host objected to me sending a substitute, he's no friend of mine.

This highlights the ongoing problems that you have with God. You seemingly
insist that He revise and relax His rules...that He include all of your vagabond homeless friends on the guest list even if they curse Him to His face...and tainted by jars propaganda, you also seemingly act as if God is simply a character in a book that humans have a responsibility to rebuke.

IF there is a Creator of all seen and unseen Who desires to draw humanity closer...is it really up to us to school God on whom to accept or reject?

Remember what the thread is about: exchanging what He does for us with what He does to others.
So are you suggesting that we resist accepting what He does for us and bargaining for the release of others---especially those who miss the cut? It suggests that we play God ourselves and snub our noses at the "Host" unless He allows us to bring our grungy guests with us....why not give Him the right to refuse service to whomever he wishes? Do we love people more than Him? If so, we are going against scripture...

Matthew 10:37(ESV) writes:

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-18-2015 12:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 09-19-2015 12:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 110 by Asgara, posted 09-20-2015 7:07 PM Phat has responded
 Message 111 by Omnivorous, posted 09-20-2015 8:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(4)
Message 107 of 113 (769309)
09-19-2015 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
09-18-2015 12:52 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
ringo writes:

The Flood story might tell you that God will save you if you trust in Him. Or it might tell you that you have to build your own ark. What it should NOT tell you is that it really happened.

When I realized we were supposed to believe the fairy tales we were being told in Sunday School with comics and coloring books , I read the Bible through for the first time.

My dad was a union steward, so my first thought was that our contract wasn't worth the paper it was written on, since the Boss could just tear it up, and often did.

I read about the second Job Junior and wondered how he slept at night. Perhaps he'd never heard of double-or-nothing.

I decided the Bible was a collection of fables with no connection to any nonhuman power. I'd seen enough real world by then to know the cruelty and betrayal in it smelled entirely human.

I was disinvited to Sunday School. The minister told me I should go home and think about whether or not I wanted to burn in Hell forever. I told him that if God and the elite partied in Heaven while billions of people were tortured forever, I wanted no part of it. I thought he was going to hit me, for he was a Godly man.

I still feel that way. Tormenting my brothers and sisters is a deal-breaker.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-18-2015 12:52 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(4)
Message 108 of 113 (769326)
09-19-2015 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
09-18-2015 9:09 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

This highlights the ongoing problems that you have with God.


I also have problems with Long John Silver.

Phat writes:

You seemingly
insist that He revise and relax His rules...


Well, he'd have to mend his ways if he wanted any respect from me, YES.

Phat writes:

...that He include all of your vagabond homeless friends on the guest list even if they curse Him to His face...


You're being dishonest. Most of them don't curse him to his face. Many of them follow him. But it isn't his actual followers that he embraces, according to your theology; it's only those who profess, "Lord!, Lord!"

Phat writes:

...and tainted by jars propaganda, you also seemingly act as if God is simply a character in a book that humans have a responsibility to rebuke.


I don't mind giving jar the credit. But believe it or not, a thought or two did cross my mind before I joined EvC.

Phat writes:

IF there is a Creator of all seen and unseen Who desires to draw humanity closer...is it really up to us to school God on whom to accept or reject?


If he really wanted to draw humanity closer, there wouldn't be much room for rejection.

Phat writes:

So are you suggesting that we resist accepting what He does for us and bargaining for the release of others---especially those who miss the cut?


Isn't that what Jesus said? Didn't he tell a story about a Good Shepherd who went out to find the one sheep who had missed the cut?

Phat writes:

It suggests that we play God ourselves and snub our noses at the "Host" unless He allows us to bring our grungy guests with us...


Since we have the Knowledge of Good and Evil, yes, we do have to "play God" in the sense that we have to take responsibility - and that includes being our brother's keeper.

Phat writes:

...why not give Him the right to refuse service to whomever he wishes?


Why not give us the right to decline the invitation? If my brother isn't invited to the party, why would I want to go?

Phat writes:

Do we love people more than Him?


Yes.

Phat writes:

Matthew 10:37(ESV) writes:
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me


I don't mind being unworthy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1361
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 109 of 113 (769424)
09-20-2015 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


cavediver writes:


...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.

If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?


The Apostle Paul said that he would have done this if it had been possible:
quote:
Rom. 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.


He was convinced that his fellow Jews, no matter how sincere or devout, no matter what special privileges they had, would not get to heaven without accepting Christ.

If we follow Paul as he followed Christ, we will have the same attitude.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 09-06-2016 4:49 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1780
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(4)
Message 110 of 113 (769427)
09-20-2015 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
09-18-2015 9:09 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

...the right to refuse service to whomever he wishes...

Now where have I heard this before? A real Christian concept if ever I heard one

Edited by Asgara, : premature submission


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 09-21-2015 10:13 AM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 111 of 113 (769438)
09-20-2015 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
09-18-2015 9:09 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Remember what the thread is about: exchanging what He does for us with what He does to others.

So are you suggesting that we resist accepting what He does for us and bargaining for the release of others---especially those who miss the cut? It suggests that we play God ourselves and snub our noses at the "Host" unless He allows us to bring our grungy guests with us....why not give Him the right to refuse service to whomever he wishes? Do we love people more than Him? If so, we are going against scripture...

Weren't you once involved with a union, Phat? Would you go to your membership and say, "The Boss wants to give me a major bonus if I fire you guys. I love ya and all, but...you understand"?

Is it loving people more than God if we do as were told, and treat all people as if they were Him? Loving them as ourselves? Greater love hath no man...

Perhaps you could make a case against an idolatrous regard for an individual, which is what the scripture you cite seems to be about. But loving people and treating each one the way we would God is about as scriptural as you're gonna get.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 112 of 113 (769457)
09-21-2015 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Asgara
09-20-2015 7:07 PM


The Right To Refuse Service...
OurBelovedQueen writes:

Now where have I heard this before?

Touche!

I never thought about it until you brought up the obvious social parallels....I need to think more before i type.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Asgara, posted 09-20-2015 7:07 PM Asgara has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 113 of 113 (790848)
09-06-2016 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by kbertsche
09-20-2015 6:55 PM


Apostle Paul Would Give Up His Spot...
cavediver writes:


...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?


The Apostle Paul said that he would have done this if it had been possible:
quote:
Rom. 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to son-ship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.


He was convinced that his fellow Jews, no matter how sincere or devout, no matter what special privileges they had, would not get to heaven without accepting Christ.

If we follow Paul as he followed Christ, we will have the same attitude.

Why not just follow Jesus? This rhetoric sounds noble in principle...but one must ask why these folks rejected Christ. Any ideas?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by kbertsche, posted 09-20-2015 6:55 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

  
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