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Author
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Topic: Free will vs Omniscience
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 509 of 1444 (786997)
07-01-2016 12:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 508 by ringo
06-30-2016 12:10 PM
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Being Obedient Is Good For Everyone
In each of the examples you mention, the people brought it upon themselves. They were either disobedient, worshiping idols, or flat out evil. Care to comment? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 508 by ringo, posted 06-30-2016 12:10 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: Being Obedient Is Good For Everyone
depends WHO you are being disobedient to and also WHY. What are your motives? Its one thing to simply be ornery and another thing to hurt others for your own selfish gain
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 510 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2016 12:22 AM | | New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 514 of 1444 (787128)
07-04-2016 4:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 513 by ringo
07-02-2016 12:27 PM
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Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
slavery is a natural consequence of idolatry...since we become a slave to whatever addiction masters us I suppose you would argue that religion is itself an addiction...and I doubt i would argue much with you regarding that! One problem in these types of debates is in reference to god as simply a character in a book rather than an actual relationship in the mind and heart. It is rather difficult to arrive at any sort of consensus when the character is a creation of humanity in the belief of some, while an actual presence in the belief of others.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 513 by ringo, posted 07-02-2016 12:27 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 515 by jar, posted 07-04-2016 4:34 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 516 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2016 6:30 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 517 by ringo, posted 07-05-2016 12:20 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 518 of 1444 (787224)
07-07-2016 6:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 517 by ringo
07-05-2016 12:20 PM
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Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
It is my belief that you can only understand the character in the book through knowing the character outside of the book first. It is not the other way around. People indict God based on the book yet don't even know God. I suppose you may argue that God is unknowable without reading the book...but what of people who have claimed to have met "Him" who have yet never read the book? This is why consensus is difficult. One side claims the other side needs to meet God...while the other side claims that the book is the only way to get a grasp of the character.(and can't conceive of "knowing" a character in a book after all....)
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 517 by ringo, posted 07-05-2016 12:20 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 525 by ringo, posted 07-08-2016 11:53 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 526 by Faith, posted 07-08-2016 9:58 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 519 of 1444 (787225)
07-07-2016 6:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 516 by Tangle
07-04-2016 6:30 PM
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Re: Literary Character or Literal Chaacter?
Why is Jesus Christ in your heart and mind but not mine? Logic would dictate that one of us is wrong. I may well ask why you never allowed your belief to over ride evidence or lack thereof. You may in turn ask me why I persist in believing unsubstantiated fairy tales. All that I see is that you value objective proof and evidence to the extent that there is no room (nor need) of belief. I, on the other hand, stand stubbornly on belief despite lacking objective proof and/or evidence.
How does that work Phat? Why some people but not others? Why no Hindus or Muslims? Why just you? First of all, its not just me. There are many Hindus and Muslims who have accepted Jesus. Granted the beliefs are largely cultural, but not exclusively so. An argument could be made that acceptance of a living Christ transcends cultures...though not for everyone. Thus your question stands...why some and not others?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 516 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2016 6:30 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 520 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2016 7:10 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 527 of 1444 (790852)
09-06-2016 6:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 85 by jar
07-16-2015 1:55 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes: Does having foreknowledge in and of itself imply evil IF some of the created beings end up evil?
jar writes: AbsoDamnlutely. ( I followed our old debate for a few posts and came up with another question.)
jar writes: If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God. Fair enough. I have a question about a portion of scripture.
John 8:31-47 writes:
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" 34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father." 39 "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." The reason I bring this scripture up is because we were talking about a God who fore-knowingly creates....
Why did Jesus tell them that their father was Satan?
Would a God who foreknew that ones father was going to be Satan be guilty based on foreknowledge alone? Would not,in fact the "God that you claim should be violently opposed" in fact be Satan rather than Creator God? Whose fault was it that Satan was their father? What difference would it make if God had foreknown that Satan would be their father from the beginning?
jar writes: Did God create you? Did God create Satan or did God merely create Lucifer? Did Abraham father the Jews in my scripture example or was Jesus correct in attributing their father as Satan?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:55 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 528 by jar, posted 09-06-2016 7:32 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 529 of 1444 (790883)
09-07-2016 11:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 528 by jar
09-06-2016 7:32 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
do you believe in or imagine a "God character".....that somehow does not know what our futures will be? If so, I'm trying to imagine how such a character would be.
Does this character exist in past, present and future as one continuum?
Does this character react to human decision?
Is this the character which you have described before as a God that is learning on the job and whom we often or even occasionally correct?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 528 by jar, posted 09-06-2016 7:32 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 530 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:15 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 531 of 1444 (790886)
09-07-2016 11:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 530 by jar
09-07-2016 11:15 AM
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Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
You are framing the argument from a human centric perspective...which I suppose is all we have to work with. I'm trying to pin you down on your belief, and you are attempting to keep that personal and instead hypothetically describe a God character---assign a judgement on such a character without then telling us what such a character should behave as. So I will ask a question. How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 530 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:15 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 533 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:31 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 532 of 1444 (790887)
09-07-2016 11:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 530 by jar
09-07-2016 11:15 AM
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Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes: If there is a God that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that God has foreknowledge and that God creates humans that will get damned to hell then that God is evil. Another way to frame this question: If there is a God that is the creator of all seen and unseen,Who directly or indirectly is responsible for the creation of humans, are you then saying that our charge is irrelevant to whether this God lioves us, hates us, or is indifferent to us? Are you saying that it is about what we do period? In essence are you preaching that we all should simply throw God away and act according to our conscience?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 530 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:15 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 534 of 1444 (793028)
10-19-2016 3:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 533 by jar
09-07-2016 11:31 AM
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Behavior Of A Creator
Phat writes: How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?
jar writes: Not like the Gods of Scripture. Do you believe that Jesus is God?(Now...not while on earth) Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity? GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, surely could make himself known to we ants by becoming an ant. In addition, an omnipresent Spirit shouldn't be that difficult of a concept to grasp. If GOD behaved in a friendly caring manner to humanity, is that such a difficult concept to imagine?
jar writes: But that is of course irrelevant to what we are charged to do. I believe we are charged to behave NOT according to our conscience but rather as commanded by Jesus and other spiritual teachers. So GOD as taskmaster. Supreme Commander Of all things seen and unseen, disciplining the ants that He so loves. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 533 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:31 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 535 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 9:10 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 536 of 1444 (793041)
10-19-2016 10:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 535 by jar
10-19-2016 9:10 AM
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Re: Behavior Of A Creator
jar writes: How? If God became a man then what we would know would be a man. What might be learned is that God might begin to learn what it means to be man. Too funny. God needs to learn nothing. Jesus was in the beginning with the father. Therefore there would be no later time frame in which GOD would learn anything. Indeed it would be a learning experience for us to imagine a GOD becoming human. For GOD, however, Who exists in every past, present and future moment, the lesson was already internalized. He did it because He loved us. Perhaps for you, His life was more of a teaching example than His death.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 535 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 9:10 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 537 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 2:34 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 538 of 1444 (793155)
10-22-2016 8:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 535 by jar
10-19-2016 9:10 AM
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Re: Behavior Of A Creator
jar writes: Nowhere did I mention any Supreme Commander or anything about disciplining anyone. What I mentioned was that we must do. Yes. You mention that we are charged. Who or what charges us? Is the charge self internalized or is it from a higher source?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 535 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 9:10 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 539 by jar, posted 10-22-2016 9:29 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 540 of 1444 (795142)
12-06-2016 6:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by jar
07-16-2015 2:05 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes: Then if that God creates something that will be damned then that God is evil by definition. It is the very act of that creation that damns such a God. I totally disagree. Humans have a choice irregardless if God knows the choice. The statement should read if that God creates someone that wills themselves to be damned...." We were given a free will. God is responsible only for that fact. Whether such a deity is as you say worthy of our worship is also an action of free will. You seem stuck on this idea that God is a sociological concept that humans have a responsibility to define. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:05 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 541 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:05 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 542 by jar, posted 12-06-2016 7:09 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 543 of 1444 (795145)
12-06-2016 7:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 89 by jar
07-16-2015 2:20 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes: It is the very act of that creation that damns such a God.
jar writes: If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil.
What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results? I would say no. So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if we freely chose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we freely chose to be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves? Is foreknowledge itself the sticking point in these discussions? Were we to argue in court could we accuse God of negligence based simply on the attribute of foreknowledge?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:20 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 546 by jar, posted 12-06-2016 9:06 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 547 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 12:31 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18301 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 544 of 1444 (795146)
12-06-2016 7:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 541 by Asgara
12-06-2016 7:05 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Asgara writes: If this god does not know the outcome then people have to quit using the term omniscient concerning this god. But does that then mean that we are limiting God to our preferred definition of Him?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 541 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:05 PM | | Asgara has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 545 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
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