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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 210 of 329 (173121)
01-02-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
05-23-2004 12:29 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
OK, Jar. Jumping back to this topic, lets refresh the original thread intent:
IRH writes:
So, some questions to start with:
What is actually necessary to be a true Christian?
- belief in bible inerrancy?
- belief in creationism?
- regular Church-going habits?
- regular prayer?
- use of the bible as a moral guide?
- belief in the core message of Jesus Christ?
Who gets to decide who is and who isn't, and how relevent is their opinion?
- the Pope?
- Christian fundamentalists?
- majority decision by ordinary Christians?
- just the person in question?
- non-Christians who are familiar with Christians?
Of course, this leads to the question of whether someone who decides to go on a killing spree for God after reading the Old Testament is a 'true Christian'.
You then have a concise and good reply:
jar writes:
is pretty much covered, IMHO, in Matthew Chapter 22, Verses 36-40.
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
As I see it, there are three things needed, to love GOD, to love others and to love yourself.
There is no need to believe in the Literal interpretation of the Bible, but rather to learn from it and understand its message.
So the question that jar and I are discussing is this: Why was Hitler a Christian..(or NOT!) I say that a Christian is not a Christian by proclamation but by impartation of the Holy Spirit. So how do we know? Some say we will know them by their works. Others say that it will be the lifestyle. So if a Buddhist monk is a pacifist while an American Christian is a Marine, is one any closer or further from God than the other?
I believe that it is impossible for someone to love totally and NOT be a Christian. Even that Buddhist! He will have to meet Jesus and will accept Him, in all probability! While the Bible need not be taken literally in all aspects, the fact of a living Savior who died and rose again and is alive today MUST be accepted literally and will be accepted by all who truly love rightly.
Hangdawg writes:
We are commanded as Christians to be "ambassadors for Christ". We do this by obeying his commands, following his moral code, and loving and serving God and others. If we do not obey his commands, then we are not acting as ambassadors in the name of Christ, but are derelecting our duty.
And I saw Tals video.
In the video, the soldiers were doing their job. It is not an easy one. Were I, as a Christian, to be asked to do such a job, I would be unable to do so in that capacity. I am NOT saying that Tal is not a Christian, however. That is between God and Tal.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-02-2005 15:31 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 05-23-2004 12:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 01-02-2005 5:59 PM Phat has replied
 Message 212 by RAZD, posted 01-02-2005 6:52 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 228 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 10:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 235 of 329 (174644)
01-07-2005 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by nator
01-03-2005 10:40 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Scraff writes:
The members of the Christian White Supremacist group known as the Ku Klux Klan proclaimed to be Christians.
And yes, I cannot publically judge them except to say that the idea of human supremacy flies in the face of scripture. Jesus took upon Himself No reputation, was humble, and was kind to all...He never killed His opponents.(as they would die anyway without His Spirit)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 10:40 AM nator has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 237 of 329 (445487)
01-02-2008 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
05-23-2004 12:29 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Jar writes:
As I see it, there are three things needed, to love GOD, to love others and to love yourself.
There is no need to believe in the Literal interpretation of the Bible, but rather to learn from it and understand its message.
IMHO, it is really that simple.
How does someone love God who never learned or knew who God was?

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 05-23-2004 12:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 01-02-2008 4:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 329 (448618)
01-14-2008 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by HisNails
01-14-2008 10:46 AM


Doing The Best We Can
HisNails writes:
I think the whole philosophy of turn the other cheek like Jesus did is a wonderful thought in theory.But when it actually comes to doing what you preach it is hard to follow through with.I know me as a person struggles with this on a daily basis
Welcome to EvC, HisNails. Yes, I agree with you. Survival Of The Fittest certainly never involved voluntary submission to others, now did it?
I will say, however, that we are quite capable of doing the best that we can on a daily basis.
We may fall short, but I believe that Gods Grace covers us as long as we did our part honestly and forthrightly.

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 Message 239 by HisNails, posted 01-14-2008 10:46 AM HisNails has not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 329 (791070)
09-09-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
05-24-2004 11:52 AM


What Is Scripture?
jar writes:
I would imagine that those who consider themselves Christians will fall into two distinct camps, those who believe that a Christian Must take the Bible literally, and those who believe that a Christian Must Not take the Bible literally.
That is an important distinction and one that I think needs to be made. I doubt that it can be resolved but I do think that it is the bottom line crux of all of the disagreements.
This brings up the question of what is scripture? I have heard you say a time or two that Twain and other secular writing could be called scripture.
Definition writes:
the sacred writings of Christianity contained in the Bible.
"passages of scripture"...the sacred writings of another religion.
noun: scriptures
Do you believe that secular writings can be authoritative and/or sacred? What is the standard? (Im guessing Logic, Reason, and Reality )
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-24-2004 11:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 09-09-2016 9:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 09-10-2016 12:12 PM Phat has replied
 Message 250 by Asgara, posted 09-10-2016 2:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 329 (791079)
09-10-2016 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Faith
09-09-2016 11:01 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Faith writes:
I'm going to assume that Phat has the perspective to know you're blowing hot air.
You should know jars beliefs by now,Faith. I don't believe much of what he says...I honestly think he has concluded that he will never know GOD until after he passes...if even then...but thats his personal beliefs which we wont see.
He might ask us how we know its God and not a bad burrito or other emotional symptom..and I respect that line of logic to a point. I believe that one must either stand for something or fall for anything. Jar would probably agree---and tell us that he tests all scripture and the rest of human writing against logic, reason, and reality. I would argue that humans are incapable of finding God.(But that He finds us) jar would reply that its irrelevant--that we are charged to do for others and that even if there were no God our charge would be the same. This is why I nicknamed him the Apostle To The Atheists. Some folks say they need evidence and that there is none. They would argue that God doesn't exist so its a non argument!
jar writes:
We decide what is scripture.
Do we also decide who or what is God? I seriously doubt that if Jesus came back He would be having a beer with the boys!
jar writes:
What makes it scripture is a human pronouncement that the writing was inspired...
It may be a human pronouncement but it was based and inspired from an actual person who was witnessed to have died and risen again. The reason the books are inspired is because of the Holy Spirit...the comforter. Granted, Mark Twain is inspirational at times, but you would have to show me specific examples of Twain-inspired writings.
Edited by Phat, : formatting

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 11:01 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 8:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 251 of 329 (791111)
09-10-2016 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ringo
09-10-2016 12:12 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
ringo writes:
When Paul told Timothy that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God" do you think he meant the letters that he was going to write next week?
No, of course not. We have had an ongoing argument on Source vs Content. Your side has basically declared that determination of source (in regards to whether it came from God) is impossible without evidence. The content of a phrase is thus the standard.
If Paul tells Timothy that scripture is inspired by God, what would you expect Timothys next questions to be?
A) Paul, do I believe everything you say or write? How do I test for integrity?
B) I have no questions. Paul tells me its from God, I believe Paul.
C) Do I believe what I feel or should I look for evidence?
I believe what I feel. Internally it seems right to me. I suppose what you contrarians and atheists are challenging me to do is look for evidence and never stop questioning. If so, thanks for looking out. My only question to you is this: Will you ever believe or will you wait until an apple hits you on the head?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 09-10-2016 12:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 09-11-2016 2:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 09-19-2016 5:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 329 (791112)
09-10-2016 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Asgara
09-10-2016 2:57 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
In the context of the Bible, it refers to the subject of the Bible.
Look at what I asked Ringo in the prior thread. Paul was sending what jar would call an interoffice memo. Granted it was simply something written. My question is "would anyone of us expect Timothy to question it"? Why or why not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Asgara, posted 09-10-2016 2:57 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 329 (791113)
09-10-2016 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
09-10-2016 8:09 AM


Re: What Is Scripture?
jar writes:
You ask "What is scripture?". That too is a topic that has been going on for about 2000 years just within Christianity and far longer in many of the other Great Religions and there is still no universal definition of what Scripture is beyond the simple statement that Scripture is an inspired story.
There never will be.
Both questions are simply human constructs and the answers will depend directly on the humans that make the assignments.
Of course the answer depends on the humans. He Who Has An Ear Let Him Hear! If someone yells "Fire! Fire!" Are you gonna sit around and test for source or content? Are you gonna stop and use logic, reason, and reality beyond trying to smell smoke or see flames?
Im not expecting folks to agree with my answers. I am expecting folks to accept that I have accepted the fire and am attempting to share my acceptance. You all can ask philosophical questions on the porch of battleship gray until sunrise if you want.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 8:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 9:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 255 of 329 (791118)
09-11-2016 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by jar
09-10-2016 9:03 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
The reality is "So far even within Christianity there is no universal accepted list of what is or is not scriptural beyond the first five books of the Old Testament."
Perhaps not universally but there is a majority agreement concerning the New Testament.
If there is some Holy Spirit actually guiding the process, why has that Holy Spirit been unable to get anything as simple as a definitive list of what is and is not scriptural accepted?"
Because there are a few people whom are unimpressed by Pauls marketing. I would honestly estimate that 9 out of 10 Christian churches do in fact accept the New Testament. The fact that a few of you belong to a contrarian club brings into question the word "definitive". The reason,in my opinion, that the Holy Spirit has been unable to achieve unity is because some people refuse to accept it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 09-10-2016 9:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 09-11-2016 8:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 329 (791119)
09-11-2016 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
01-14-2008 2:19 PM


Creed vs Reason and Reality
jar writes:
Christianity is just a club. That's all. It is a human club created by human beings for very human purposes. To be a member of some club you need to subscribe to the basic "terms of membership".
In Club Christian the basic membership requirements were set out in the Nicene Creed in about the 4th Century. The goal was to create a basic set of Bylaws that would unite all the different chapters of Club Christian.
So in your opinion, unity is to some degree achieved through accepting the Nicene Creed...if not what is scripture.
Nicene Creed writes:
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
The contrarian minority would argue that there is no proof or evidence that Jesus was born of a Virgin. They even trot out their scriptures (as defined and/or interpreted by them) to prove that the Holy Spirit (as stated in the Nicene Creed) is illogical.
Now before you say anything, I can readily accept that Jesus while on earth was human. How many humans can be born of a virgin? Do you go with the Creed on this one or do you go with your logic, reason, and reality?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 01-14-2008 2:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 09-11-2016 8:16 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 260 of 329 (791223)
09-13-2016 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
09-11-2016 2:21 PM


Re: What Is Scripture?
Of course Timothy and you should test what Paul wrote for integrity and look for evidence. You should always look for evidence.
Timothy was a companion and trusted younger men-tee of Pauls. Why would Timothy even think of testing Paul's integrity? And I am certain that Timothy saw and observed a lot of evidence.
Do you test the integrity of those whom you hand money to? Do you have any close friends whom you regularly test for integrity?
Perhaps you have a point concerning what you and I should do...since we don't know Paul directly.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 09-11-2016 2:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 09-13-2016 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 261 of 329 (791224)
09-13-2016 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
09-11-2016 8:16 AM


Re: Creed vs Reason and Reality
Phat writes:
I can readily accept that Jesus while on earth was human. How many humans can be born of a virgin? Do you go with the Creed on this one or do you go with your logic, reason, and reality?
jar writes:
Well, I have to go with reason, logic and reality.
Jars Belief Statement writes:
Bishop: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
People: I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
So in your opinion Jesus was not born of a virgin. OK, got it. I know your arguments somewhat well, and I know you emphasize Jesus life rather than his death, burial, and resurrection.
I also know the arguments concerning what the Bible says versus what many theologians teach and/or were taught that it says.
What If God was one of us?
Thats quite a contrarian chapter of the Episcopalian Club! I realize that the old joke says that there may be a chance that in any given congregation you may find two whom agree!
So Jesus while on earth was not simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Do I understand you correctly? Do I understand you to go with the logic,reason,and reality of those scholars who have systematically redefined the whole belief that Jesus was different from other humans? That He was as capable of falling short as you or I? That He had nary a clue who God was?(While human?) Are you straying that far from the Creed? If so I think you are WRONG.
The whole impact, influence, and relevance of early Christianity in the shaping of modern culture was not all Holy and Shiny and Sinless. That I will readily admit. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
I firmly believe that if Jesus were simply as human as you or I, He would have no more of a footnote in History than did George Washington.
I suppose that an argument could be made that Mohammed was a mere human and yet had a similar global impact.
I also see how it could be argued that Jesus was who we wanted Him to be and was a product of marketing and lobbying. I stand by my belief, however. Scripture and other biblical writings have value because God was made human. Not because another anonymous baby was born and became another teacher.
Edited by Phat, : added rant, once I awoke for a new day.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 09-11-2016 8:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-13-2016 8:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 264 of 329 (791596)
09-17-2016 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
01-02-2005 5:59 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Hitler believed he was a Christian and that his actions were doing the Christian Gods's work. He sincerely believed. So how can anyone say he is NOT a Christian?
What does the evidence show?
Just because someone claims a name does not make them part of a family.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 01-02-2005 5:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 4:20 PM Phat has replied
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 09-18-2016 2:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 266 of 329 (791601)
09-17-2016 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
09-17-2016 4:20 PM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
The evidence shows Hitler was a Christian, recognized by several major Christian churches as a Christian, claiming to be a Christian, using scripture to support and justify his behavior.
Churches are full of people who talk the talk. In addition, many politicians claim to be Christians. Speechwriters historically have used scripture references in speeches.
You seem to think the evidence consists merely of being recognized as a member of the club.
But of course this goes along with your whole belief system.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 4:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 7:48 PM Phat has replied

  
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