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Author
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Topic: What is a True Christian?
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 195 of 329 (117189)
06-21-2004 3:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 194 by Steve
06-21-2004 3:23 PM
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You have asserted that. But so far offered no evidence. It is recognized as a religion, professes a supernatural being, has form and ceremony, has related reference books and all other characteristics of a religion. It is exactly like every other religion, ISLAM, Hindu, Jewish and the rest. If you have evidence that it is not a religion, please tell us. The Pope would be interested as well.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 194 by Steve, posted 06-21-2004 3:23 PM | | Steve has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 196 by Steve, posted 06-21-2004 3:55 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 208 of 329 (122126)
07-05-2004 12:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 207 by Trixie
07-05-2004 6:42 AM
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Re: What IS a Christian? My opinion
Thank you Trixie. An eloquent and well formed statement.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 207 by Trixie, posted 07-05-2004 6:42 AM | | Trixie has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 211 of 329 (173131)
01-02-2005 5:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 210 by Phat
01-02-2005 5:23 PM
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Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
well, let's look and see what Hitler said and believed. "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." From Mein Kampf. and...
Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933
(Many, many more quotes available) So Hitler not only believed he was a Christian he professed that he was a Christian. The Nazi party and Administration was recognized by the Vatican and relations were maintained throughout the existence of the Nazis. Now in thread after thread here ay EvC I have said the Salvation was determined by behavior while many here have said that it is belief (specifically a belief in Jesus and Christian Dogma). So which is it? Hitler believed he was a Christian and that his actions were doing the Christian Gods's work. He sincerely believed. So how can anyone say he is NOT a Christian? Is it what you do, or what you say? Is it the message Love GOD and love others as yourself", or is it profession?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 210 by Phat, posted 01-02-2005 5:23 PM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Actually, you are quote mining. If you wish, pick any one of the quotes to begin with and I will gladly step through each of them and show you that they are taken out of context.
BTW, I could easily see Hitler using religious and patriotic images to persuade the religious and the patriotic to his view...IOW, Mein Kampf could be propaganda as opposed to honest self-evaluations. I will be glad to show many more examples that Hitler believed he was doing GOD's (the Christian GOD's) work. Start a thread on it and we can go through it again. It's easy to be a Christian if we exclude anyone who behaves poorly. That is simply dishonest. There are example after example of really bad Christians throughout history.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Don't worry, there are lot's and lot's of quotes.
The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Sorry, all you have there is the cover my eyes, see nothing opinion of an apologetic. What I have provided are the quotes from Hitler himself.
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 238 of 329 (445489)
01-02-2008 4:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 237 by Phat
01-02-2008 4:23 PM
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Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
By loving others and oneself.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 237 by Phat, posted 01-02-2008 4:23 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: True Whatever???????
Sorry I missed this and apologize for the late reply. Christianity is just a club. That's all. It is a human club created by human beings for very human purposes. To be a member of some club you need to subscribe to the basic "terms of membership". In Club Christian the basic membership requirements were set out in the Nicene Creed in about the 4th Century. The goal was to create a basic set of ByLaws that would unite all the different chapters of Club Christian.
Nicene Creed writes: We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. Since then, many local chapters of Club Christian have added their own local rules and bylaws, for example on the precise method of baptism or confirmation or which Sacraments are required. Anyone who subscribes to the basic "terms of membership", the Nicene Creed, and is a member in good standing of one of the chapters of Club Christian is a True Christian. BUT... being a Christian says nothing about being Godly or Good.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 256 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:53 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 245 of 329 (791071)
09-09-2016 9:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
09-09-2016 9:39 PM
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Re: What Is Scripture?
Remember almost everything that is in the Bible (whichever Canon is considered) began as secular writing. Most of the Old Testament is a collection of folk tales, just so stories, laws, genealogies, tribal histories and political propaganda. Most of the New Testament consists of Interoffice Memos. What makes it scripture is a human pronouncement that the writing was inspired and a human selection for inclusion (or exclusion) in (or from) one of the many Canonic Lists. We decide what is scripture.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 244 by Phat, posted 09-09-2016 9:39 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 246 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 11:01 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 248 of 329 (791086)
09-10-2016 8:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
09-10-2016 12:37 AM
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Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes: Do we also decide who or what is God? I seriously doubt that if Jesus came back He would be having a beer with the boys! But all of the evidence shows that yes, we do decide who or what is God. And we have made that decision many, many, many times; Jesus and Allah and Zeus and Coyote and Raven and Ganesha and ... Also, according to the Bible stories if Jesus did come back that is exactly where you would find him, hanging out with the boys (and girls). He hung out with tax collectors and sinners and made the beer (well wine) run at the party and threw fish fries at the beach.
Phat writes: It may be a human pronouncement but it was based and inspired from an actual person who was witnessed to have died and risen again. The reason the books are inspired is because of the Holy Spirit...the comforter. So you claim but what does the evidence show? There are many Canons, declarations of what is and is not scripture and the only books common to ALL of the different Canons are the first five books of the Old Testament. And that is just within Christianity. Taoists have other scripture equally inspired. Buddhists have other scripture equally inspired. Hindus have other scripture equally inspired. If the Holy Spirit is the inspiration then why did the Holy Spirit decided differently based on which people were doing the Canonization? Or do you mean the Holy Spirit inspired those works YOU consider scripture? The topic is "What is a True Christian" and has been going on for over a decade so far and there is still no universal definition of what a True Christian is. There never will be. You ask "What is scripture?". That too is a topic that has been going on for about 2000 years just within Christianity and far longer in many of the other Great Religions and there is still no universal definition of what Scripture is beyond the simple statement that Scripture is an inspired story. There never will be. Both questions are simply human constructs and the answers will depend directly on the humans that make the assignments.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 247 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 12:37 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 253 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 8:23 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 254 of 329 (791114)
09-10-2016 9:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
09-10-2016 8:23 PM
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Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes: Of course the answer depends on the humans. He Who Has An Ear Let Him Hear! That is one of those trite bumper sticker non thinking worthless rejoinders.
Phat writes: If someone yells "Fire! Fire!" Are you gonna sit around and test for source or content? Are you gonna stop and use logic, reason, and reality beyond trying to smell smoke or see flames? I am absolutely gonna test content and source and use logic, reason, and reality beyond trying to smell smoke or see flames. In fact I have even trained for just that situation as did every kid in our family.
Phat writes: Im not expecting folks to agree with my answers. I am expecting folks to accept that I have accepted the fire and am attempting to share my acceptance. No one questions the fact that you have accepted what you believe. The issue is that you seem to want others to share your beliefs and not question what you share. That's just silly as well as unreasonable.
Phat writes: You all can ask philosophical questions on the porch of battleship gray until sunrise if you want. But so far no one is asking philosophical questions, rather they are asking very practical reality based questions. If you wish for folk to do more than agree that you believe what you believe, if you wish to convince folk that you have some content that should be considered, then you need to do far more than simply shout Fire Fire or Lord Lord or Born Again or Transformed or Touch by the Holy Spirit. The question most recently asked by you is "What is scripture?" and the answer is that even within Christianity there is no universal or uniform answer. You seem to want to fall back on the Holy Spirit (or Jesus or God or most any other insubstantial critter) instead of addressing facts and reality. The reality is "So far even within Christianity there is no universal accepted list of what is or is not scriptural beyond the first five books of the Old Testament." If there is some Holy Spirit actually guiding the process, why has that Holy Spirit been unable to get anything as simple as a definitive list of what is and is not scriptural accepted?"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 253 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 8:23 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:40 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 257 of 329 (791122)
09-11-2016 8:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
09-11-2016 7:40 AM
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Re: What Is Scripture?
Phat writes: jar writes: The reality is "So far even within Christianity there is no universal accepted list of what is or is not scriptural beyond the first five books of the Old Testament." Perhaps not universally but there is a majority agreement concerning the New Testament. So it is, as I said, a human decision as to what is scripture. If there is some Holy Spirit actually guiding the process, why has that Holy Spirit been unable to get anything as simple as a definitive list of what is and is not scriptural accepted?" Because there are a few people whom are unimpressed by Pauls marketing. I would honestly estimate that 9 out of 10 Christian churches do in fact accept the New Testament. The fact that a few of you belong to a contrarian club brings into question the word "definitive". The reason,in my opinion, that the Holy Spirit has been unable to achieve unity is because some people refuse to accept it. So it is, as I said, a human decision as to what is scripture. Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:40 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 258 of 329 (791123)
09-11-2016 8:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 256 by Phat
09-11-2016 7:53 AM
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Re: Creed vs Reason and Reality
Phat writes: So in your opinion, unity is to some degree achieved through accepting the Nicene Creed...if not what is scripture. The Nicene Creed is not scripture. One clue might be that it is a Creed. But again, even the Nicene Creed is a human creation that evolved over time. But Phat, that is only within a given club, a set of guidelines for that club. It says nothing about what is, rather only what the club says they believe.
Phat writes: The contrarian minority would argue that there is no proof or evidence that Jesus was born of a Virgin. They even trot out their scriptures (as defined and/or interpreted by them) to prove that the Holy Spirit (as stated in the Nicene Creed) is illogical. Now before you say anything, I can readily accept that Jesus while on earth was human. How many humans can be born of a virgin? Do you go with the Creed on this one or do you go with your logic, reason, and reality? Well, I have to go with reason, logic and reality.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 256 by Phat, posted 09-11-2016 7:53 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 261 by Phat, posted 09-13-2016 12:16 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 262 of 329 (791229)
09-13-2016 8:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
09-13-2016 12:16 AM
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Re: Creed vs Reason and Reality
Phat writes: So Jesus while on earth was not simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Do I understand you correctly? Do I understand you to go with the logic,reason,and reality of those scholars who have systematically redefined the whole belief that Jesus was different from other humans? That He was as capable of falling short as you or I? That He had nary a clue who God was?(While human?) Are you straying that far from the Creed? If so I think you are WRONG. Yes, I do believe Jesus while on earth was simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Nor do I see that as straying from the Nicene Creed. In fact I believe the Nicene Creed supports my position. The rest was more about your beliefs than mine and I have never tried to get you to change your beliefs.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 261 by Phat, posted 09-13-2016 12:16 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 413 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 265 of 329 (791598)
09-17-2016 4:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
09-17-2016 3:17 PM
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Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Phat writes: What does the evidence show? Just because someone claims a name does not make them part of a family. The evidence shows Hitler was a Christian, recognized by several major Christian churches as a Christian, claiming to be a Christian, using scripture to support and justify his behavior. Phat, this whole thread, this whole topic has shown that there is no real definition of what a Christian is, rather there are a whole bunch of definitions all based on the individual biases of an individual, a group or an era. What Hitler did was no different than what American Presidents have done in the past, American Presidents recognized as devout Christians. It was no worse than our pogrom against the Native Americans, our forced removal of them from their homes and lands, our destruction of their cultures, or confiscation of their property and wealth, our constant failure to honor the Treaties we made and forced on them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 264 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 3:17 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 266 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 7:16 PM | | jar has replied |
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