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Author Topic:   Faith vs Science
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 151 of 186 (789630)
08-17-2016 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
08-17-2016 9:07 AM


Re: The Word Of The Day:Imagine
Phat writes:

Quite simply I am attempting to show that when men imagined something, it was usually their own vain imagination.

You don't have to attempt to show it, when men imagine something, it's men that do the imagining. Vain or otherwise.

There were times, however, where their imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans.

This is just preaching - there were no such times.

Need I remind you again that this is a science thread? If you have something to substantiate this stuff other than men's imaginings let's see it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 08-17-2016 9:07 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 1:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 152 of 186 (789693)
08-18-2016 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Tangle
08-17-2016 10:08 AM


Re: The Word Of The Day:Imagine
This is just preaching - there were no such times.
You have no evidence of this either.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 10:08 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 2:16 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 153 of 186 (789694)
08-18-2016 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
08-18-2016 1:19 AM


Re: The Word Of The Day:Imagine
Phat writes:

You have no evidence of this either.

You know how this works Phat, it's your claim that the world worked in a different way than it does now some indeterminate time ago; I'm calling you on it, it's your job to demonstrate it.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 1:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Pressie, posted 08-18-2016 7:04 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:57 PM Tangle has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 154 of 186 (789697)
08-18-2016 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Tangle
08-18-2016 2:16 AM


Re: The Word Of The Day:Imagine
Tangle writes:

You know how this works Phat, it's your claim that the world worked in a different way than it does now some indeterminate time ago; I'm calling you on it, it's your job to demonstrate it.

Yes. Exactly. In economic geology we can demonstrate that the earth more-or- less worked the same way billions of years ago. Old earth methods and models work. We can more-or-less predict what's going to be found underground. No Spooks involved.

Unlike the non-scientific methods. They can't accurately predict anything. Anything can happen with their "models". They can't predict what's going to be found undergound at all. Just: anything can be found or not found.

That's about it. No use at all.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 2:16 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13459
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 155 of 186 (789714)
08-18-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
08-17-2016 9:07 AM


Re: The Word Of The Day:Imagine
Phat writes:

Quite simply I am attempting to show that when men imagined something, it was usually their own vain imagination. There were times, however, where their imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans.


That's only your vain imagination.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 08-17-2016 9:07 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 156 of 186 (789735)
08-18-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by ringo
08-18-2016 12:55 PM


Re: The Word Of The Day:Imagine
You may be right. I hope not, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 12:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 08-19-2016 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 157 of 186 (789736)
08-18-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Tangle
08-18-2016 2:16 AM


At The End Of The Day...
There were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general.

- there were no such times......You know how this works Phat, it's your claim that the world worked in a different way than it does now some indeterminate time ago; I'm calling you on it, it's your job to demonstrate it.

All I can say is that perhaps in our lifetime we may see evidence that convinces us one way or the other. You may become more convinced that there were and are such times, or i may finally be persuaded that you were right all along. Time will tell. In the meantime, enjoy life and try your best.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 2:16 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 4:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 160 by edge, posted 09-19-2016 7:25 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4980
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 158 of 186 (789737)
08-18-2016 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:57 PM


Re: At The End Of The Day...
Phat writes:

There were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general.

Nope, never happened - just stuff people made up for you to repeat. Just pure nonsense.

All I can say is that perhaps in our lifetime we may see evidence that convinces us one way or the other. You may become more convinced that there were and are such times, or i may finally be persuaded that you were right all along. Time will tell. In the meantime, enjoy life and try your best.

Don't be silly, how could there be anything that could convince me of it? What is it that you can even imagine that would do it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13459
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 159 of 186 (789792)
08-19-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:50 PM


Re: The Word Of The Day:Imagine
Phat writes:

You may be right. I hope not, however.


Vain hope in vain imagination.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3904
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 160 of 186 (791676)
09-19-2016 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:57 PM


Re: At The End Of The Day...
[qs]here were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general.
That's what they say here in Colorado, too. But it isn't a god.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 2:25 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 161 of 186 (791732)
09-20-2016 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by edge
09-19-2016 7:25 PM


Re: At The End Of The Day...
Phat writes:

here were times, however, where (human) imagination was of God...chiefly because it was His creative Spirit...His imagination working through His Prophets and chosen people..rather than the limited vain imagination of fallible humans in general.


edge writes:

That's what they say here in Colorado, too. But it isn't a god.

Yoyu mean our imagination isnt a god? Scientifically you are absolutely correct. I may perceive and believe that God speaks through humans..but no way can I prove it. I do have a scrip that gives me internal verification,however.
2 Peter 1:20-21 writes:


Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

I realize that this is meaningless to a critical thinker who denies belief in favor of evidence...so in conclusion, I will say that scientifically I cannot write a thesis on how to know God...at least one that differed from what scripture says....I would quote scripture only because i believe that one can not improve the original wording. Apart from all that, in order for believers to demonstrate how they know God, one would have to follow them around with a camera and a mic...without them knowing...to witness the behavior of the individual.

I would say that you would be witnessing and documenting God through the behavior of a human. You may argue that my evidence was insufficient to differentiate a believer from a non believer. So here we are.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by edge, posted 09-19-2016 7:25 PM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Taq, posted 09-20-2016 2:32 PM Phat has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7034
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 162 of 186 (791734)
09-20-2016 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
09-20-2016 2:25 PM


Re: At The End Of The Day...
Phat writes:

Apart from all that, in order for believers to demonstrate how they know God, one would have to follow them around with a camera and a mic...without them knowing...to witness the behavior of the individual.

How would behavior indicate that they know anything about any deity?

I would say that you would be witnessing and documenting God through the behavior of a human.

You could say that the Sun orbits the Earth. You could say that the Moon is made of marshmallows. Saying something does not make it true.

This seems to be a thread that runs throughout theism. Theists believe that writing something down or saying something makes it true by the very act of writing it or saying it. You take that same position, treating scriptures as dogmatically true simply because somebody wrote them down.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 2:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 05-23-2017 12:01 PM Taq has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 163 of 186 (810089)
05-23-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
04-08-2016 9:00 AM


In Light Of Recent Discussions
The original topic here was:
quote:
In this topic, I want to again bring up some basic questions regarding the difference between faith and science.
  • What constitutes valid evidence? (In regards to both Faith & Belief and Science Forums) Is valid evidence the same for both science and faith?

  • Must Faith have evidence?

    We know that science requires evidence.

  • Faith is often personal. Should people of faith be allowed to get angry when their beliefs are challenged? How should creationists defend their faith and still represent science?
  • The main reason I brought this topic back was to address Faiths rant over at Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.

    For the YEC, I ask if there should be a different definition as to what science is apart from critical thinking and the scientific method.

    If as claimed the Bible is used as a source, should it simply be allowed to be accepted as a valid source or does it require some sort of standard (apart from Jesus Christ Himself)


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 04-08-2016 9:00 AM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by jar, posted 05-23-2017 12:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 168 by Taq, posted 05-23-2017 12:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 172 by NoNukes, posted 05-24-2017 2:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9589
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    (1)
    Message 164 of 186 (810091)
    05-23-2017 11:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
    08-01-2016 9:45 AM


    Re: Topic Remix
    Faith writes:

    Faith in the right things, true things, real things although unseen things, faith in the true God and His revelation in the Bible, can certainly lead to knowledge of things in the real world. Nobody is claiming faith "is supported by evidence or science," what we are claiming is that faith LEADS to knowledge that can be scientific.

    The critics will claim that in order for any claim to be scientific it has to be verified through the scientific method.

    Believers are passionate about their source, though it is technically unverifiable without belief. I know. I am one of them.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by Faith, posted 08-01-2016 9:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 167 by ringo, posted 05-23-2017 12:06 PM Phat has responded
     Message 171 by Tangle, posted 05-24-2017 12:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9589
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 165 of 186 (810092)
    05-23-2017 12:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 162 by Taq
    09-20-2016 2:32 PM


    Re: At The End Of The Day...
    Taq writes:

    Theists believe that writing something down or saying something makes it true by the very act of writing it or saying it. You take that same position, treating scriptures as dogmatically true simply because somebody wrote them down.

    You are basically correct. Belief is very strong in that one.

    Our argument is that belief needs to be respected rather than simply dismissed without evidence.

    Your argument is that science by definition rejects and dismisses a myriad of things on a regular basis.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by Taq, posted 09-20-2016 2:32 PM Taq has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 169 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2017 12:46 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 170 by Taq, posted 05-23-2017 5:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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