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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 181 of 277 (791526)
09-16-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Phat
09-16-2016 6:38 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:
1) We would have no faith if we had evidence. God wants us to have faith.
That is what humans say about God, and there is no evidence to back it.
2) It would give no one the freedom to disbelieve. Its rather hard to disbelieve when the evidence can be replicated before your eyes by anyone or even by yourself.
I wasn't aware that disbelief was a freedom. Is the Moon taking away my freedom of disbelief because it is so obviously sitting in the sky?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 6:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 182 of 277 (791527)
09-16-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
09-16-2016 6:47 AM


Re: Second Hand Information
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
... do you really need a return address when the sender is omniscient?
Depends whether you want to communicate with the sender or not.
Look at the question. If God is omniscient, YOU don't need a return address to communicate with HIM. He already knows. The only reason to have a go-between is if He isn't listening. Or He isn't talking to you directly. You can't claim to have a "personal relationship" with God and need a go-between at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 6:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 183 of 277 (791528)
09-16-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Phat
09-16-2016 6:38 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:
God wants us to have faith.
Bigfoot wants us to have faith. Leprechauns want us to have faith. The Tooth Fairy wants us to have faith.
"Wants us to have faith" is just a lame excuse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 6:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 5:23 PM ringo has replied
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:49 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 184 of 277 (791747)
09-20-2016 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
09-16-2016 11:50 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
ringo writes:
"Wants us to have faith" is just a lame excuse.
Excuse for what? Blaming someone besides ourselves? Counting on someone besides ourselves?
Why discourage belief as an excuse? What makes you think you can or should handle all of your responsibility by yourself? You may prefer to do it that way. You may find no evidence that anyone else is in the room besides yourself...but I ask you: Do you really want them there or are you rejecting help so as not to look irresponsible or weak?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 09-16-2016 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Taq, posted 09-21-2016 12:26 PM Phat has replied
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 09-21-2016 3:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 185 of 277 (791771)
09-21-2016 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Phat
09-20-2016 5:23 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:
Excuse for what? Blaming someone besides ourselves? Counting on someone besides ourselves?
A lame excuse for not having evidence.
Imagine if you were on a jury, and the prosecutor made the following argument:
"I contend that the defendant, John Smith, is guilty of murder. How do I know that? Easy. If John Smith had committed this crime, then he would have cleaned up all of the evidence. We found no evidence at the scene of the crime. Therefore, John Smith must have committed the murder."
Would you find that argument convincing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 5:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:47 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 186 of 277 (791772)
09-21-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Taq
09-21-2016 12:26 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
the Bible clearly says that without faith....it is impossible to please God. It does nowhere say that without evidence it is impossible to "prove" God as if the Creator somehow needed proof. I am convinced that most people dont want God....its just that simple. Even jar...supposedly a believer (though he leaves wiggle room by saying he is most likely wrong) says that if the God of the Bible were really God, that God would be worthy of scorn and contempt.
I can understand you rejecting organized religion.
I cant understand you demanding evidence.
Many of you know what it is you are rejecting. You may claim that it is impossible to know without evidence.
I say you are lying to yourselves.
I contend that God exists and that the lack of evidence is a purposeful reality.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Taq, posted 09-21-2016 12:26 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 09-21-2016 2:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 09-21-2016 6:56 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 201 by Taq, posted 09-23-2016 10:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 187 of 277 (791773)
09-21-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
09-16-2016 11:50 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Bigfoot wants us to have faith. Leprechauns want us to have faith. The Tooth Fairy wants us to have faith.
You know darn well which God you are rejecting. Don't play dumb.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 09-16-2016 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 09-21-2016 3:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 193 by Asgara, posted 09-21-2016 6:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 188 of 277 (791775)
09-21-2016 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by ringo
09-16-2016 11:46 AM


Re: Second Hand Information
If God is omniscient, YOU don't need a return address to communicate with HIM. He already knows. The only reason to have a go-between is if He isn't listening. Or He isn't talking to you directly. You can't claim to have a "personal relationship" with God and need a go-between at the same time.
Lets discuss this.
He already knows. The only reason to have a go-between is if He isn't listening.
Yes He does know. You are just mad because He wants to fry your "friends"...
which shows me that you have not been talking/listening very well. You stubbornly insist on evidence...little realizing that He never provided the type of evidence you want on purpose.
So again I say that you really decided it is less painful to simply throw all that dogma and myth (as you may call it) away.
the reason for Jesus is that God doesnt necessarily have ears. Imagine talking to a cloud. Can the "cloud" hear you?
And I remember the argument that a "god" dying and coming back is no big deal.
Which shows me that you understand the arguments logically very well but refuse to risk your emotions and hearts on anything less than evidence. Even then I doubt you would want to follow Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 09-16-2016 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 09-21-2016 3:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 189 of 277 (791776)
09-21-2016 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Phat
09-21-2016 12:47 PM


getting stuff wrong again.
You gotta stop trying to say what other folk think.
Phat writes:
the Bible clearly says that without faith....it is impossible to please God. It does nowhere say that without evidence it is impossible to "prove" God as if the Creator somehow needed proof. I am convinced that most people dont want God....its just that simple. Even jar...supposedly a believer (though he leaves wiggle room by saying he is most likely wrong) says that if the God of the Bible were really God, that God would be worthy of scorn and contempt.
That is not what I say at all. What I say is that there is no such thing as "The God of the Bible" and in fact the Bible is filled with different and often totally contradictory Gods, many of which are worthy only of scorn and contempt and that should be ridiculed and opposed.
I have said that the God much of Christianity markets is a picayune despot also unworthy or worship or respect.
I have said Christianity is almost certainly wrong as is every religion and as are EVERY God or god we can describe.
I have said that Christianity though is a path I have chosen as a life guide, a description of how I should behave.
Phat writes:
I cant understand you demanding evidence.
Many of you know what it is you are rejecting. You may claim that it is impossible to know without evidence.
I say you are lying to yourselves.
I contend that God exists and that the lack of evidence is a purposeful reality.
And that is fine. You can of course contend anything.
But what does that have to do with anyone else? Why must you continue to make assertions about what others do and say and think when the evidence shows you are almost always wrong?
Why would any God that needed to be pleased be considered worthy of even acknowledgement?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 190 of 277 (791783)
09-21-2016 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Phat
09-20-2016 5:23 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
"Wants us to have faith" is just a lame excuse.
Excuse for what?
For God not sittng on my couch to prove He exists.
Phat writes:
What makes you think you can or should handle all of your responsibility by yourself?
The fact that God doesn't do everything for you, no matter how fervently you believe. If He can't be relied on by believers, do you think He's going to do more for unbelievers?
Phat writes:
Do you really want them there or are you rejecting help so as not to look irresponsible or weak?
Now you're using what you think I think as an excuse.
I've told you before, I wish there was a magical spook that I could count on for help. If you have any influence with such an entity, by all means, send it to see me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 5:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 191 of 277 (791784)
09-21-2016 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
09-21-2016 12:49 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:
You know darn well which God you are rejecting. Don't play dumb.
I'm rejecting EVERY "god" that deliberately hides from me.
But you're avoiding my point: What's the difference between your "god" and the Tooth Fairy? What's the difference between your "god" and a leprechaun? What's the difference between your "god" and Bigfoot?
If there's no evidence for any of them, why do you arbitrarily choose to believe on one of them and not the others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 192 of 277 (791787)
09-21-2016 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
09-21-2016 12:58 PM


Re: Second Hand Information
Phat writes:
So again I say that you really decided it is less painful to simply throw all that dogma and myth (as you may call it) away.
Bullshit. You're the one who is lying to yourself, trying to make up excuses for why I don't accept your excuses.
Phat writes:
Imagine talking to a cloud. Can the "cloud" hear you?
That's a bad analogy for you, a good one for me. Can you have a personal relationship with a cloud?
Phat writes:
And I remember the argument that a "god" dying and coming back is no big deal.
If Jesus is God, resurrection is a foregone conclusion.
Phat writes:
Which shows me that you understand the arguments logically very well....
Unfortunately, you don't. You reject the logic in favour of fantasies you've made up in your head about why others don't believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(2)
Message 193 of 277 (791798)
09-21-2016 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
09-21-2016 12:49 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
I don't know the originator of this story but it's been around the internet for decades.
Kissing Hank's Ass
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
From the Desk of Karl
01 Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
02 Use alcohol in moderation.
03 Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
04 Eat right.
05 Hank dictated this list Himself.
06 The moon is made of green cheese.
07 Everything Hank says is right.
08 Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
09 Don't use alcohol.
10 Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11 Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the shit out of you.
Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 194 of 277 (791799)
09-21-2016 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Phat
09-21-2016 12:47 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
the Bible clearly says that without faith....it is impossible to please God. It does nowhere say that without evidence it is impossible to "prove" God as if the Creator somehow needed proof.
And yet both the new and old testament are replete with examples of God and Jesus providing evidence. Moses was provided with evidence, as was Doubting Thomas. The Disciples saw Jesus perform miracles first hand, and in some cases were involved in the actual performance of miracles.
Yes, Faith is required. But that does not mean that God will not, or does not provide evidence. That's not at all what we see in scripture.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


(2)
Message 195 of 277 (791803)
09-21-2016 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Asgara
09-21-2016 6:30 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
For those that would rather just watch a video
Edited by AdminAsgara, : edited in a different video as the original one wouldn't work for me

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Asgara, posted 09-21-2016 6:30 PM Asgara has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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