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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 275 of 329 (791657)
09-19-2016 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
09-10-2016 7:57 PM


How should we understand Scripture?
Phat writes:
If Paul tells Timothy that scripture is inspired by God, what would you expect Timothys next questions to be?
A) Paul, do I believe everything you say or write? How do I test for integrity?
B) I have no questions. Paul tells me its from God, I believe Paul.
C) Do I believe what I feel or should I look for evidence?
Let's look at the quote you are referring to form 2 Timothy 3.
quote:
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Neither God-breathed or inspired is the equivalent of saying that the Bible is inerrant. Yes I know that many people try and use it that way but that isn’t what it says.
All human wisdom is a gift from God. It is all God breathed or inspired. That doesn’t mean that human wisdom is inerrant. We do know that all scripture was written by humans. The question then is did God somehow short circuit human wisdom to come up with an inerrant Bible.
I agree that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Firstly then, why would Jesus have to correct what had been written. As I have pointed out to you before Jesus refers to passages from the Torah as being written by Moses and then corrects them.
For example here is a quote from John 8.
quote:
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4 and said to Jesus, Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?
6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.
8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?
11 No one, sir, she said. Then neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. Go now and leave your life of sin.
The Pharisees are referring back to Leviticus 20 where God commands death for adultery. Note too that they don’t say God told us to stone her, they say that Moses told them. Jesus say that Moses, not God got it wrong.
So let’s break it down by what Paul says how scripture it to be understood and used.
1/ Teaching: We learn that adultery is wrong and we see that as we all sin none of us have earned the right to, metaphorically speaking, cast the first stone.
2/ Rebuking: Jesus is rebuking self-righteousness and the idea of public stoning.
3/ Correcting: Both the Pharisees and the woman are corrected and when we read this can find things in our own life that need correcting.
4/ Training: It is easy to see that Jesus is saying that the legalistic hard hearted attitude of the Pharisees was in need of training to soften their hearts and from that I suggest that Jesus wants us to train ourselves and others to have softer more understanding hearts.
I agree that God breathes life into the scriptures. He speaks to us through the Scriptures. The scriptures are a huge part of the Christian faith but if we start to believe that the man Moses, or for that matter any other Biblical author wrote specifically as directed by God then we have to conclude that death by public stoning is ok and that Jesus got it wrong.
In the end we have to come to a conclusion on whether we understand the nature of God and His desires for our life through Jesus or an inerrant Bible. Is it the Bible that perfectly embodies the eternal Word or wisdom of God or is it Jesus? It can’t be both.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-10-2016 7:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:16 PM GDR has replied
 Message 279 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2016 8:52 PM GDR has replied
 Message 288 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 5:14 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 277 of 329 (791685)
09-19-2016 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
09-19-2016 7:16 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
Faith writes:
What on EARTH do you think you are saying? Do you actually think Paul would have called anything other than scripture itself "God breathed" or "inspired" -- which means breathed by the Holy Spirit? The same Paul who calls human wisdom "foolishness with God" (1 Cor 1:20, 3:19)? Human beings may be capable of some wonderful things even in our fallen condition, but nothing that Paul or any other writer of scripture would call "God breathed." If it's God-breathed it is authored by God Himself and therefore inerrant.
Interesting that you pick out that to quote and respond to, while ignoring the fact that Jesus tells us that it was Moses not God that wrote that verse in the OT and that Moses got it wrong.
I was simply pointing out that as life is a gift from God then it follows that so is wisdom.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:59 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 280 of 329 (791693)
09-19-2016 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Faith
09-19-2016 7:59 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
Faith writes:
No you weren't, you were denying the inerrancy of scripture. Which you were also doing when making it seem like Moses' could have said anything as if under his own power rather than God's inspiration.
I do agree that I don't believe that we are to understand the scriptures the same way you do. You choose an inerrant Scripture over what Jesus says and I choose Jesus over an inerrant Scripture. It is either Jesus or an inerrant Scripture. Take your pick. The two positions are not congruent.
I explained in that earlier post how I contend is the way that God speaks to us through the Scriptures.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 09-19-2016 7:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 281 of 329 (791694)
09-19-2016 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by NoNukes
09-19-2016 8:52 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
NoNukes writes:
A bit of a nitpick here, but statements like these do not claim that Moses wrote the Torah. The quoted statement just says that the Torah, which is not written in first person anyway, contains Moses words.
OK, but the quote I used was that "Moses COMMANDED us to stone such women". If you go back to Leviticus 20 where that command comes from you can see that Chapter 20 starts off with, "Then the Lord spoke to Moses saying... and then follows on with along list of punishments which includes death for adultery.
Another example is from Numbers 15.
quote:
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp. 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Here we can see that it is very clear that the writer is saying that the public stoning by the community is commanded by the Lord through Moses. When Jesus refers back to the Torah as in the adultery case He doesn't say that God commanded it, He says that Moses commanded it.
NoNukes writes:
However inerrant Bible worshipers have a number of techniques for defending innerancy despite statements like this one. One doctrine is to talk about dispensations. 'Moses was right for his time, but we are in a different dispensation after Jesus'.
The problems with that though are huge. If we are to believe that, then we are left with a God of situational ethics. If our understanding of the nature of God follows along that line then who is to say that we aren't back in the same situation now with people of other faiths. All of Jesus' teaching about love your enemy is simply boiled down to that we should love our enemy as long as they are nice to us. Jesus didn't take that attitude with the Romans.
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2016 8:52 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2016 2:42 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 286 of 329 (791738)
09-20-2016 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by NoNukes
09-20-2016 2:42 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
Sorry. Of course you are right. Tradition has it that Moses wrote the Torah but nobody really knows.
The point remains though that Jesus says that it was Moses that commanded them to stone to death adulterers, and that Moses got it wrong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2016 2:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by kbertsche, posted 09-20-2016 4:32 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 289 of 329 (791766)
09-21-2016 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by kbertsche
09-20-2016 4:32 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbertsche writes:
Your point would be a lot stronger if you argued from a passage that was actually in the original manuscripts. As you probably know, the story of the woman caught in adultery is thought by most scholars to be a later addition to the text. Those who hold to inerrancy claim that it only applies to the original autographs, which did not contain this account.
So, in other words the Bible is inerrant except for where Jesus says it isn't. Here then is another case from Matthew 19 where Jesus says that the OT got it wrong.
quote:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason? 4 Haven’t you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate. 7 Why then, they asked, did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? 8 Jesus replied, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
...or maybe this from Matthew 5 should not be counted as part of the canon either.
quote:
38 You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor  and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Then there is the matter of squaring Jesus' command to love your enemy as opposed to the OT orders where Yahweh supposedly commands genocide and communal stoning to death for minor offences. It can't be done.
Again, it is either Jesus as the embodiment of the Word of God, or an inerrant Bible. It is Christianity or Biblianity. You can't have both. An inerrant Bible is simply one of the false idols that the Bible itself talks about.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by kbertsche, posted 09-20-2016 4:32 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by kbertsche, posted 09-21-2016 2:36 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 290 of 329 (791769)
09-21-2016 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Phat
09-20-2016 5:14 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
Phat writes:
Of course, I believe that Jesus not only existed and was alive but that He is alive today and that the comforter---the Holy Spirit---can speak through any one of us.
I agree, but just because someone says that the Holy Spirit led them does not mean that He actually did. I suggest that is also the case where the writers of the OT books claim that Yahweh told them that Yahweh commanded genocide and public stoning.
Phat writes:
What is truth? Is truth relative or absolute? Is the truths gleaned from the Bible any more special than Mark Twain and the Perfect Stranger?
There is an ultimate truth but not we can't have absolute certainty of that truth, and so we go on faith that we have it right. I have faith that the Bible is the narrative of the progressive revelation that comes from God reaching out to mankind, with it climaxing in Jesus. With Jesus as a lens we can discern what actually did come from God and what didn't. I believe that The Bible is a library of books that God uses to reach out to us for teaching, rebuking, correcting etc.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 5:14 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 296 of 329 (791786)
09-21-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by kbertsche
09-21-2016 2:36 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbertsche writes:
No, of course not. The Bible is inerrant in its original manuscripts. Any later additions, changes, and explanatory notes are NOT inerrant.
You may think that this is a "cop-out", but it is not. There is very good agreement among biblical scholars on later additions to the text. This is determined by objectively comparing the earliest manuscripts to later ones.
So I assume you think that the other examples I gave weren't supposed to be included in the Gospels either, or did those who put the canon together get it wrong?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by kbertsche, posted 09-21-2016 2:36 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by kbertsche, posted 09-21-2016 6:22 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 301 of 329 (791802)
09-21-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by kbertsche
09-21-2016 6:22 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbersche writes:
Why do you assume this? Do you really think there are objective, textual reasons that your other examples were not in the original autographs?
Hardly. You explained away the first quote by saying that it didn't belong in the canon. I was wondering what your reasoning was to explain the other examples of how Jesus contradicted what Moses said after Moses claimed that God had commanded it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by kbertsche, posted 09-21-2016 6:22 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by kbertsche, posted 09-21-2016 8:39 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 305 of 329 (791814)
09-22-2016 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by kbertsche
09-21-2016 8:39 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbertsche writes:
But I don't see how your other examples "contradict" Moses. Mt. 19:8 explains WHY Moses allowed divorce; it says that this was a temporary concession due to their hardness of heart. This is an "explanation", not a "contradiction":
It explains why Moses permitted it but then Jesus goes on to say how it was from the beginning. Jesus is saying that Moses used his own understanding but that he got it wrong., even though Moses claimed that it came from the Lord.
kbertsche writes:
Nor do I see that Mt 5 "contradicts" Moses. Rather, it EXTENDS his commands by focusing on the motives rather than on the outward manifestations. What Moses said still applies; the outward manifestations are still wrong.
That's true in some cases but here is an example where it isn't. Jesus says in Matthew 5:
quote:
38 You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
Jesus is referring to Exodus 21 and Leviticus 24 where the Bible tells us that the Lord told Moses that it is an eye for an eye etc. Here Jesus says that wasn't correct and then corrects what had been written.
For that matter, once again, you can't square that statement by Jesus with a God that commands genocide and public stoning. It is either faith in Jesus as the embodied word of God or an inerrant Bible. Once again you can't have it both ways.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by kbertsche, posted 09-21-2016 8:39 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 6:06 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 308 of 329 (791819)
09-22-2016 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by kbertsche
09-22-2016 6:06 AM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbertsche writes:
I don't see why not. Why can't this simply be another case of the rules changing because times have changed?
In other words you are quite prepared to worship a god of situational ethics. You are prepared to worship a god that is prepared to have you and your like thinking inerrantists engage in a campaign of genocide if the situation demands it, or to execute people for minor offences against laws that you believe God has commanded.
Again we have seen what war does to the men and women who fight them. PTSD is real. It destroys people's lives. As an inerrantist you believe that Yahweh personally destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Why then, when He can simply do it Himself, would He ask the people that He loved to slaughter the men women children and infants of a neighbouring community?
Look at this from Numbers 15.
quote:
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly,
34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.
35 Then the LORD said to Moses, The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.
36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
You are prepared to worship a god that not only is prepared to have his people execute this poor smuck, but to do it a way that is slow and painful as well as involving the whole community in the execution.
Frankly, I just don’t get it. After reading the Gospels can you really in your wildest imagination really see God as embodied by Jesus ever sanctioning such an atrocity in any time or situation?
This is what comes out of making a false idol of the Bible instead of allowing God to speak through it, and using it as Paul says for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Edited by GDR, : typo

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 6:06 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 11:42 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 311 of 329 (791825)
09-22-2016 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by kbertsche
09-22-2016 11:42 AM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbertsche writes:
Yes; Have you read the book of Revelation recently?
Yes. I recently was part of a study of the book. You obviously insist on reading it with a 21st century mind set. It was a book written by a Jew to the Jewish members of the early Christian church. It is full of Jewish apocalyptic writing. I would also add that the writers of that time used massive exaggeration to make a point.
So yes, I agree that those whose lives are totally self serving will choose a life in or of hell in both this life and the next. As C S Lewis says those that are in hell choose it.
However, once again the book of Revelation is to be read through the lens of what Jesus taught and how He lived. You don't do that however when you worship an inerrant Bible instead of Jesus.
kbertsche writes:
Rather, your approach only allows God to speak through the parts of the Bible that you like, and insulates you from what He is trying to teach, rebuke, or correct you from the parts that you don't like.
No. I allow God to speak through all parts of the Bible using the lens of what Jesus taught so that I can understand how and when we get it wrong and when we get it right.
I can see when Moses said that the Lord told him that the guy should be stoned to death for picking up firewood on a Saturday that he got it wrong. When he says things like this in Leviticus -
quote:
15 ‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. 16 ‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. ‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD. 17 ‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt. 18 ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
- we can see that he got it right, with the exception of that he should have pointed out that it wasn't just for their fellow Israelites but for the world. Even at that though it was a part of the progressive revelation of God and was a very good start.
This is teaching, correcting and rebuking the way that God through Jesus intends.
You still haven't explained why a loving god would not only commit genocide himself but having the people he loved do the job for him knowing full well what the trauma would do to them, as well as explaining public stoning for minor offences.
As a matter of fact you have left off explaining most of the points of inconsistencies concerning the nature and character of God as seen in Jesus and as we see in the OT.
You just blindly going on following with a 21st century mindset that yearns to have absolute answers to all of your questions. This is a gross misuse of a collection of books that are a gift from God. It is a repudiation of the life and teaching of Jesus.
Why, would you worship a god that endorses public stoning for even minor offences and that commands that the people he supposedly loves to slaughter men, women children and even infants? The only reason to worship a god like that is because you believe that he really is God and it is in your best interest to do so. This is the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches where we are to take the focus off of ourselves and live a life altruistically loving our neighbour.
In the end I see an atheist that rejects that teaching could be closer to the heart of God than a Biblical inerrantist. Fortunately, the fundamentalists that I know actually do reject that god and essentially rationalize away the type of things that I mentioned and do align more with the teaching of Jesus than they do with the parts of the OT that Jesus repudiates. I have no doubt but that this is true in your case.
However, in the end it is bad theology and as I say it represents Biblianity instead of Christianity and is a huge stumbling block for many who reject the Christian faith as they are led to believe that it is all Bible focused instead of Jesus focused. It turns faith and belief into a work and is the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees that Jesus so strongly criticized.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 11:42 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 2:13 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 313 of 329 (791830)
09-22-2016 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by kbertsche
09-22-2016 2:13 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbertsche writes:
GDR, you don't know most of my positions on these issues. But instead of asking and discussing, you prefer to make unjustified assumptions and false allegations about what I believe. For example, you say that I "obviously insist on reading it with a 21st century mind set." You are simply assuming this, you don't know how I read Revelation, and you are dead wrong. I try to interpret all of Scripture in light of the historical and cultural context in which it was written.
I asked this question.
GDR writes:
Frankly, I just don’t get it. After reading the Gospels can you really in your wildest imagination can you really see God as embodied by Jesus ever sanctioning such an atrocity in any time or situation?
Your answer was this.
kbertsche writes:
Yes
That isn’t an assumption, that is what you said. Based on that I have made other assumptions because you don’t answer the questions I ask so I left having to assume other things from that response. Most of it is based on the idea that you are an inerrantist so that does lead to certain assumptions. Please explain how my assumptions are wrong.
Just for starters once again how do you square the idea of a loving god with the idea that somebody should be stoned to death for picking up firewood on the Sabbath, with the added dimension how that will affect the people carrying out this atrocity.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 2:13 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 8:12 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 315 of 329 (791832)
09-22-2016 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by kbertsche
09-22-2016 8:12 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
kbertsche writes:
Very briefly: God is loving, but He is not ONLY loving. He is also just, all-knowing, and many other attributes. What He does must be consistent with the entirety of His character, not only with a single attribute, like love (or worse, our modern understanding of what this single attribute means).
Essentially I agree except I don't understand why you would separate His love and His justice. Perfect justice is loving.
kbertsche writes:
But I don't really want to get into a discussion of inerrancy or OT genocide for a number of reasons:
1) These are difficult and complex topics, and this would start a protracted discussion which I simply do not have the time for.
2) I do not sense that anyone here really is willing to consider these views; it seems that everyone just wants to argue against them. I am not interested in arguing.
3) these are off-topic for the current thread.
It is only difficult because there is no answer available. Jesus' teaching is totally incompatible with what God is supposed to have commanded in places in the OT. Of course in many cases it is completely compatible.
If we are talking about what is a true Christian then I would think that it is necessary to sort out what is true Christianity.
kbertsche writes:
This thread is about "What is a true Christian?" It is NOT necessary to hold to inerrancy or to believe that God commanded genocide in order to be a true Christian.
Anybody can call themselves a Christian I suppose and be a true Christian. It just seems to me though that it is true Christianity that is the issue. Inerrrancy is just not consistent with Christ's life or His message.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2016 8:12 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 09-22-2016 10:05 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 317 of 329 (791835)
09-22-2016 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by jar
09-22-2016 10:05 PM


Re: How should we understand Scripture?
jar writes:
But Jesus was not a Christian and Christianity is a creation of folk after Jesus death.
So what's your point?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 09-22-2016 10:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 09-23-2016 8:32 AM GDR has replied

  
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