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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 277 (791827)
09-22-2016 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by kjsimons
09-21-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
the hanks ass stuff is amusing and showcases how non believers may view the rules that some believers may insist on, but also minimizes the passion and reason for belief from our standpoint. The box that you put God in is different from my perspective.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by kjsimons, posted 09-21-2016 7:30 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Asgara, posted 09-22-2016 4:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 198 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2016 5:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 277 (791843)
09-23-2016 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Tangle
09-22-2016 5:11 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
We see that the more passionate the belief the deeper the delusion and the more the deluded are then prepared to act irrationally on their beliefs.
Which would be true if He didnt exist.
The Bible talks of delusion...(not that you are impressed) and it talks of those who believe the Lie as being deluded. It also says God will send the delusion.
The reason is that people had no love for the truth.
Your truth is based solely on physical verifiable evidence.
The reason for accepting evidence must be contemplated.
I believe that we accept what we want to accept. You dont have to accept any unproved thing if you dont want to.
Let me ask you this....if there were evidence that Jesus was God, would you worship Him or would you find an excuse to oppose Him. (Hypothetical Question)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2016 5:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2016 5:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 09-23-2016 11:47 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 203 of 277 (791859)
09-23-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by ringo
09-23-2016 11:47 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Lemme get this straight. Assuming that Jesus was God...not a spaghetti monster. Not a creation of your brain. Not a character in a book.
You seem to think that if such a thing as a Creator of all seen and unseen were in human form and in the room next to you you would simply stroll over to him and ask questions? Did it ever occur to you that you would not be on His level? Just sayin..
and keep in mind we are being hypothetical for the purpose of this argument.
Lets get even more hypothetical. Say you turn this question back to me. First, describe to me the character and nature of a hypothetical God that YOU create.
Then I'll tell you my response

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 09-23-2016 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 09-23-2016 6:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 11:54 AM Phat has replied
 Message 215 by Taq, posted 09-26-2016 1:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 205 of 277 (791864)
09-24-2016 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by jar
09-23-2016 6:07 PM


Re: one learns by asking questions of those not on the same level.
so what sort of questions would you ask Him? And can you imagine what sort of questions He might ask you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 09-23-2016 6:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 09-24-2016 7:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 277 (791865)
09-24-2016 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by ringo
09-23-2016 11:47 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Why does He feel a need to be worshiped?
He may say that worship is totally voluntary. He may feel offended if you ignored Him and turned on the football game IF He was trying to have a conversation with you, however.
If I did oppose Him, how would that affect Him?
He may say that opposing Him would not affect Him but it might affect YOU.
Upon further reflection of the worship question, He may say that worship causes you to focus. Worship is for our benefit...not His.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 09-23-2016 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 12:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 210 of 277 (791874)
09-24-2016 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by ringo
09-24-2016 11:54 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:
First, describe to me the character and nature of a hypothetical God that YOU create.
A being that created all that is seen and unseen would probably be fairly aloof from much of its creation.
Only if It wanted to be. Perhaps It would want to be involved.
He wouldn't be impressed if it "worshiped" Him.
Perhaps He would be proud. Perhaps He would feel that the creation was better off worshiping Him rather than gold, fast cars, or faster women.
He wouldn't feel the need to destroy it, or to create a fiction in His own mind about sending His Son to "save" it from Himself.
He may think that a free willed creation was capable of destroying itself. He may also feel that sending His Son as a messenger would be the only way to preserve the free will.. Perhaps this creation meant a lot to Him and He didn't want to simply destroy this pot and start a new one. He wanted the intellectual and moral development to potentially continue without directly interfering and making the vessel perfect.
We have argued before about the hole in the front yard being an "attractive nuisance". Perhaps the hole had to be there to allow the creation the challenge and personal growth of avoiding it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 09-25-2016 2:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 09-26-2016 1:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 211 of 277 (791875)
09-24-2016 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by ringo
09-24-2016 12:00 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
So why do I need the distraction of a god to help me focus?
What would you be focused on?
Why is a god a distraction? Is a wife a distraction from a football game?
Is an attractive wife as much of a distraction?
Can God make Himself attractive? Moreso than the nuisances which take our time and money and fool us?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-24-2016 7:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 09-25-2016 2:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 217 of 277 (791916)
09-26-2016 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Taq
09-26-2016 1:13 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?
Yes. Your free will.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 09-26-2016 1:13 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 09-26-2016 9:25 PM Phat has replied
 Message 222 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 219 of 277 (791921)
09-26-2016 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
09-26-2016 9:25 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
He is free to believe in the Deity that doesnt exist and in fact differentiates it from the one I believe in. My Deity exists.
And as you have stated before, it is impossible to measure the supernatural ...
How is free will evidence of anything supernatural?
The supernatural is limited to belief. There is no evidence. Essentially one side believes in evidence. The belief is in lack of evidence...or a Deity that does not exist.
The other side has only their belief. They believe in a Deity that exists.
You cant say that my belief is incorrect. You can only say that it is likely incorrect if you adhere to the criteria of evidence. For you my belief may be indistinguishable from a non existent Deity. For me, it is not. That is essentially the difference.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 09-26-2016 9:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 7:54 AM Phat has replied
 Message 224 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 277 (791923)
09-27-2016 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
09-27-2016 7:54 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Yes. The question was
quote:
Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?
and my answer was that ones own belief...ones freewilled belief, opinion, or spirituality is what distinguishes existence vs non-existence of a Deity.
Obviously we cannot have evidence of the supernatural, but we ourselves are the living evidence of our beliefs through our actions. Not to say that Christian actions are any better or worse than atheist actions...but they are different in that Christians give the credit to a God in whom they believe while atheists do not.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 7:54 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 227 by Stile, posted 09-27-2016 11:04 AM Phat has replied
 Message 228 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 225 of 277 (791927)
09-27-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Taq
09-27-2016 10:29 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Can you please explain how people are incapable of believing in a deity that doesn't exist?
Yes. Scripture explains it in Revelation. The Beast which you saw once was, now is not, and yet is for those whose names are not written in the book of life.
Does the Beast exist, apart from a character in literature? Answer that one.
If the supernatural is real, why couldn't we have evidence of it?
What tests do you propose we use?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:29 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 09-27-2016 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 243 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 277 (791928)
09-27-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Taq
09-27-2016 10:35 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Do you understand what the burden of proof is?
Perhaps not. Enlighten me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:35 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:17 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 277 (791931)
09-27-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
09-27-2016 11:06 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
But of course that is factually wrong. Your belief has nothing to do with distinguishing anything other than your personal belief. It does not distinguish between existence or non-existence of anything in reality.
Not true. What you do shows who you are. You can preach till the cows come home but if you dont do anything but dance and sing about it, nobody sees anything other than a flake.
It is a fact that we represent Jesus Christ here on earth. Or do you represent the Elks Club?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:44 AM Phat has replied
 Message 241 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 277 (791932)
09-27-2016 11:39 AM


Whose Club Do You Belong To?
I'll throw that question out to all of you. Who do you represent?
If you say you represent humanity, thats honest enough.
If you say you represent yourself, thats also a possibility.
jar, who do you represent?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:46 AM Phat has replied
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 09-27-2016 12:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 231 of 277 (791933)
09-27-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Stile
09-27-2016 11:04 AM


Re: Stubbed Toe
Good post, by the way!
Good advice also.
Coming from you it means a lot!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Stile, posted 09-27-2016 11:04 AM Stile has not replied

  
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