Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-21-2017 3:02 AM
342 online now:
Faith, frako, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), Pressie, Tangle (6 members, 336 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Post Volume:
Total: 819,198 Year: 23,804/21,208 Month: 1,769/2,468 Week: 278/822 Day: 4/67 Hour: 0/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
2425262728
29
Author Topic:   Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9916
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 421 of 427 (791839)
09-22-2016 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
09-22-2016 11:34 PM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
If it is true that there is a natural end to evolution as I've argued many times, your dating methods are therefore wrong and your fossil order an illusion.

I can agree with what your above statement, but you've cheated a bit.

The evidence of the age of the earth, and the age of the human race, and that of other animals stands in the way of your demonstration regarding the natural end of evolution, and in the way of your interpretation of geology. If you offer other evidence for you positions and ignore the counter arguments against your position, then you cannot come anywhere near showing a natural end to evolution or an origin for the grand canyon of something less than 4500 years.

Secondly, the fossil order is what it is. The idea that it is an illusion is total nonsense.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 09-22-2016 11:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1372
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 422 of 427 (791840)
09-23-2016 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
09-22-2016 11:34 PM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
Faith writes:

If it is true that the strata were laid down rapidly which many of my arguments and standard creationist arguments have shown, again goodbye to the supposed fossil order and to the supposed ancient dates,


But this is exactly the point of this thread. The strata themselves show evidence that they were laid down SLOWLY, not rapidly. This is what Glenn Morton saw as he looked. He saw evidence of buried ancient river systems. He saw animal burrows. He saw many, many other things which are documented on his old pages.

And I posted a link to Dan Wonderly's book, which details similar NON-radiometric evidence for age. Dan raises examples such as coral reefs which are thousands of feet thick; the growth rate of coral sets a minimum age of something like 100,000 years for these reefs.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 09-22-2016 11:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 09-23-2016 12:12 AM kbertsche has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26288
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 423 of 427 (791841)
09-23-2016 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by kbertsche
09-23-2016 12:04 AM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
Oddly perhaps, I wasn't referring to anything on this thread, I was summing up arguments I've made at EvC over the years on other threads, and I believe I've proved what I said. This thread is another angle on it but not the best angle for my purposes. I've proved what I wanted to prove elsewhere, though I also believe I've made some decent points against Glenn Morton's arguments here too.

All the dating claims will collapse when other arguments succeed. There's lots of evidence against YEC that is going to collapse eventually.

And one idea that OE always gets wrong is uniformitarian assumptions such as that the growth rate of coral reefs now is the same as before the Flood. Sorry, I'm not impressed with your OE position and I'm not interested in Wonderley's book.

And you really do need to investigate the claims for the modern Bibles. If you spend enough time on it you might find that Dan Wallace and James White and all the others you've been accepting are wrong.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by kbertsche, posted 09-23-2016 12:04 AM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by jar, posted 09-23-2016 7:57 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 426 by Admin, posted 09-23-2016 8:51 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 427 by kbertsche, posted 09-23-2016 8:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13114
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 424 of 427 (791842)
09-23-2016 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
09-22-2016 11:34 PM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
quote:

Oh you are wrong. If it is true that there is a natural end to evolution as I've argued many times, your dating methods are therefore wrong and your fossil order an illusion

Since Old Earth Creationism would still be viable that would not be true even if you had proven your case. But since you have not - and that is a fact - it is rather pointless even to bring it up. A failed argument cannot stand against solid evidence.

quote:

If it is true that the strata were laid down rapidly which many of my arguments and standard creationist arguments have shown, again goodbye to the supposed fossil order and to the supposed ancient dates

It has not been shown - and I would point out that YECs cannot even agree on which strata were laid down by the Flood. But such a demonstration should clearly be able to distinguish Flood strata from those laid down by more gradual processes.

quote:

I believe these things have been proved. You don't of course but if they are proved then they are proved then they do falsify the fossil order and the OE dates.

The order of the fossil record is a fact. It could only be completely disproved by finding large numbers of out-of-order fossils which is unlikely to say the least.

Your anti-evolution argument cannot disprove the dates - even if it worked.

If you could establish that most of the strata were laid down in a short period you could disprove the dates - but you would need better evidence than the dating evidence to do it and you certainly do not.

So, as a matter of fact your belief is incorrect.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 09-22-2016 11:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 425 of 427 (791845)
09-23-2016 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by Faith
09-23-2016 12:12 AM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
Faith writes:

Oddly perhaps, I wasn't referring to anything on this thread, I was summing up arguments I've made at EvC over the years on other threads, and I believe I've proved what I said.

No one doubts that you believe you have succeeded, but the reality is that all, not some, but all of the evidence shows that you have failed utterly and completely.

The fossil order would exist regardless of any argument you could make.

Faith writes:

All the dating claims will collapse when other arguments succeed.

Again, that is simply factually wrong as well as illogical. The dating evidence still exists, regardless of any argument you could make. Decay rates remain constant throughout the universe. The speed of light remains constant throughout the universe. Chemical reactions today are the same as they were several billion years ago and we can directly view those reactions from billions of years ago in real time today. It's called stars and galaxies and regardless of any argument you can make, they still exist.

Faith writes:

And one idea that OE always gets wrong is uniformitarian assumptions such as that the growth rate of coral reefs now is the same as before the Flood.

But again Faith, reality says you are wrong. There was no Biblical flood and the processes we see today are the same as they were in the past. Again, there is direct evidence that this is a fact, DNA samples from long before the supposed date of the Biblical floods as well as fossils and imprints and both absolute and relative age data.

And it is not just a few samples. We now have over 30 years worth of accumulated data on ancient DNA samples. The data is there and available to you if you are willing to study it. To give you an idea of the scope of the data consider that it ranges from a 700,000 year old horse to pigs and Neanderthals and chickens and humans and plants and maize and just about anything imaginable.

All that data really exists and will continue to exist regardless of any argument you could make and the DNA sequences can be physically compared to modern samples to show similarities.

The evidence may not impress you and that's fine. No one really much cares to impress you; yet the evidence and facts are out there and they still need to be explained. And that is what you need to do before you can convince anyone that the current theory is wrong.

Denial of the evidence will not work.

Fantasy will not work.

And this was what Glenn Morton experienced. Young Earth simply didn't work to explain reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 09-23-2016 12:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12527
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


(1)
Message 426 of 427 (791847)
09-23-2016 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by Faith
09-23-2016 12:12 AM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
Hi Faith,

Your last three messages (Message 417, Message 419 and Message 423) read like a list of things I've asked you not to do. You've claimed you've made successful arguments instead of actually making them, claimed you've proved things without actually proving them, declared arguments from the other side wrong without a bit of evidence or argument, declared that the future will prove the other side wrong, stated that you'll address some evidence and ignore the rest, and introduced the Bible into the discussion.

And let us not forget your last post (Message 1222) in the The Geological Timescale is Fiction whose only reality is stacks of rock thread where you argued that how things look to you "IS evidence", jettisoning your responsibility for building your arguments around evidence and ignoring my frequent requests that you do so.

And you've ignored the one fact that has the biggest influence on the outcome of discussions here: instead of seeking common ground and arguing toward a resolution you abandon discussions, as you seem to be doing again now with your update of your status to "inactive". Someone should keep a count of how many times you've run off in a flurry of Forum Guidelines violations.

I'm suspending you for 24 hours. When you return I think the most benefit would be gained from resuming the discussion with Stile over in the The Geological Timescale is Fiction whose only reality is stacks of rock thread by replying to his Message 1144.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 09-23-2016 12:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1372
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 427 of 427 (791863)
09-23-2016 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Faith
09-23-2016 12:12 AM


Re: Facts vs Beliefs again
Faith writes:


And one idea that OE always gets wrong is uniformitarian assumptions such as that the growth rate of coral reefs now is the same as before the Flood. Sorry, I'm not impressed with your OE position and I'm not interested in Wonderley's book.


Faith, your response is very disappointing. I know that you don't want to make detailed comments on radioactive dating, because this is a specialized field outside of your expertise. Fine; that's perfectly understandable. So I recommended to you some good NON-radiometric evidences for an old earth (by a couple of evangelical Christians who are also scientists), and you essentially dismissed them! Yes, you looked at one article by Glenn Morton, but you don't seem to have looked at his burrows page that I suggested. And you have not looked at Wonderly's evidence at all (who was on faculty at the same institution as John Whitcomb, one of the founders of modern YEC)!

If you are to be well-informed on any topic, you really need to look at the arguments of the other side. If you are to push YEC as strongly as you do, you really need to be aware of Morton's and Wonderly's arguments (and to read their own presentation of them, not biased summary of them by YECs).


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Faith, posted 09-23-2016 12:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
2425262728
29
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017