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Author Topic:   The Concept of God -- Need Logic Help
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 81 (729614)
06-15-2014 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
06-24-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
PaulK writes:
If there isn't a personality - you - making choices, how can it even be called will ?
Unless you go with the "spiritual warfare" theory...which asserts (if I think it right) that in the beginning there was but one will...Gods. Lucifer was allowed to rebel, "freeing" his will from Gods will. Humans inherited the same offer...with the one provision that there were now 3 wills...Creator God, satans, and humans.
We could argue that God foreknew all of this--hence He is evil. Satan has the same argument...that its not his fault that he became who he is. Its Gods fault.
As humans, we can wave all of the unproven spiritual reality away and assert that it is in reality one will...our own. Our will is only truly free without hindrance from any other spiritual entity.
I pray---in part----because I believe that there is an ideal will that I myself cannot attain on my own intelligence or soul.
That is an essence of my personal belief.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2010 6:25 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2014 1:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 32 of 81 (733513)
07-17-2014 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by PaulK
06-16-2014 1:44 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
If God created Satan in such a way that Satan would inevitably rebel then God is certainly responsible. Free Will would make Satan also responsible, but can't absolve God.
Based on this logic, God is responsible for literally everything
Which I disagree with. And even if we could theoretically blame Him, it would not change our responsibility in the matter.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 06-16-2014 1:44 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by PaulK, posted 07-18-2014 2:47 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-18-2014 12:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 07-18-2014 1:36 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 36 of 81 (733590)
07-18-2014 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Theodoric
07-18-2014 1:36 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
All I am saying is that the "Christian God is not responsible for what you or I choose to do,think, or behave. He may well be responsible for allowing the possibility of evil but not the choice itself, even if foreknown..
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 07-18-2014 1:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2014 8:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 81 (733647)
07-19-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
07-19-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
zombie writes:
If you deliberately wouldn't try to micromanage things like, say, putting out the fire in your neighbour's house, that would make you evil.
Here again, you want your cake and eat it too. You prefer humans to be in charge of their own lives and neighborhoods. You seemingly claim that if God is to be voted to be in charge, God should put out every fire, stop every war, and stand by with a box of spiritual band aids whenever we scuff our knee.
You seem to have an axe to grind with the Big Guy. You wont let Him be in charge over you unless He takes care of everybody.
Perhaps He simply smiles, points out the pail of water, shows you the fire, and stands back like a parent...empowering His offspring---zombie Ringo---as magistrate over the small town that you live in. If God had caused the fire, that might be another thing entirely.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 3:58 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 81 (792000)
09-30-2016 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
07-19-2014 3:58 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
He hides in His heaven, refusing to even show us that He exists.
I dont feel that way. Perhaps you do because you are stuck on the "show" and un moved by any feeling.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 07-19-2014 3:58 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 5:03 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 81 (792004)
09-30-2016 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rrhain
09-30-2016 5:03 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
It would be insulting to some. Ringo and I have a long history of going round and round with this stuff. I think he understands that its not personal.
Ringo always demands evidence. He won't entertain any belief without it, although there cannot be any evidence in regards to anything labeled supernatural.
Im chiding him for "not feelin it". Relax.
For you're benefit, I might add:
*Blink*
"You Did Not Just Say That, Did You?"

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 5:03 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Taq, posted 09-30-2016 10:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 11:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 81 (792018)
09-30-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rrhain
09-30-2016 5:03 AM


Re: Interesting Responses
You do understand just how insulting that statement is, yes?
I hear this word "insulting" quite often from unbelievers. Is the entire idea of Jesus insulting to you? Theodoric trots out the word quite often..as if how dare I say such things!
The reason I bring it up is because I hear the word more from non believers than I do from religious folks.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 5:03 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 1:06 PM Phat has replied
 Message 70 by Taq, posted 09-30-2016 2:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 72 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2016 2:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 73 by jar, posted 09-30-2016 5:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2016 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 81 (792027)
09-30-2016 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
09-30-2016 1:06 PM


Re: Interesting Responses
ahhh so it insults you when I try and psychoanalyze you! Correct?
And yes, I thought of Faith. She is a sensitive one.
You, on the other hand would be better off going to a qualified professional if you don't like my analytical style...but just between us internet friends, i'm free and they cost money.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 09-30-2016 2:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 10-01-2016 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 81 (793985)
11-07-2016 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prince Thrash
06-20-2010 7:17 PM


If It Walks Like A Duck...
An omnipotent entity, such as God or anything, would be seduced instantly into omniscience, and it seems unfathomable to think otherwise.
What on earth would have the power to seduce God?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Prince Thrash, posted 06-20-2010 7:17 PM Prince Thrash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 7:55 PM Phat has replied
 Message 80 by frako, posted 11-08-2016 3:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 81 (793990)
11-07-2016 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
11-07-2016 7:55 PM


Re: If It Walks Like A Deity...
According to the Bible a need to show who has the bigger dick (Exodus), a need to show who is stronger (Genesis 32), getting Her panties in a wad (Biblical Floods),...etc
As you have pointed out before, the Bible can be used to say anything we want it to say.
Why would God need to prove himself to mere humans?
Remember we are talking of a Creator of all seen and unseen...a Being who is all powerful and all knowing. Not some bumbling character in a book that is learning how to be a god.
Or is that how you as a teacher choose to present the Deity?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 7:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 9:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 11-08-2016 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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