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Author | Topic: Explaining the pro-Evolution position | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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After reading TheArtists recent topic proposal I think that an explanation of the mainstream pro-evolution position is needed. I will try to be uncontroversial in that but if anyone on the evolution side objects to this characterisation (which is not intended to include fringe positions) please speak up.
1) Evolution is not an all-encompassing belief system, it is a scientific theory with a limited scope. In particular, it is not a source of moral or ethical values. There are many Christians on the pro-evolution side. 2) Science is the best way to learn about and understand the physical universe, both how it operates and its history. A well-established scientific theory should be accepted as a good approximation of the truth. (And no more than that - nobody on the mainstream pro-evolution side would claim that the current theory was absolutely correct in every little detail) 3) Evolution is a well-established scientific theory (this should be uncontroversial to anyone, since it is a clear fact)
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2330 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Thread copied here from the Explaining the pro-Evolution position thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2133 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Heinlein had a good explanation of this:
Piling up facts is not science--science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning: a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness. To be valid a theory must be confirmed by all the relevant facts. ... A powerful theory not only embraces old facts and new but also discloses unsuspected facts. Expanded Universe, pp. 480-481.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Taq Member Posts: 10077 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Heinlein had a good explanation of this: Piling up facts is not science--science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning: a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness. To be valid a theory must be confirmed by all the relevant facts. ... A powerful theory not only embraces old facts and new but also discloses unsuspected facts. Expanded Universe, pp. 480-481.
The obligatory SJG quote:
quote: For the pro-evolution side, common ancestry between species is considered a fact. It is "confirmed to such a degree" as defined by SJG. When someone claims that God could have produced the fossil and genetic evidence, to us it sounds like someone saying that God could have planted DNA evidence at a crime scene, so we should just ignore it. What we look for in a theory is the ability to predict what we will see in nature. With evolution, we predict we should see a nested hierarchy (i.e. phylogeny), at least for multicellular animals. This allows us to make tons of interesting and testable predictions, such as the prediction that we will not find a fossil species with feathers and three middle ear bones. This separates evolution from pseudoscience where such precise and interesting predictions are hardly ever brought forward. We evolutionists don't reject creationism because we are afraid of the concept. We reject creationism because it is useless in the field of science.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
You will have to pardon my formatting because it has been quite a while since I've used dBCodes. But for my first response on this forum, I've chosen PaulK's post.
quote:There is a difference between "Evolution" and "The Theory of Evolution" quote:It is possible to believe that evolution occurs but that the theory of evolution is not true. In fact, I believe that is the correct view. quote:Evolution may be a well-established scientific theory but the "Theory of Evolution" is not a well-established scientific theory.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Kleinman writes: ....the "Theory of Evolution" is not a well-established scientific theory. Yes it is. Now what?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Kleinman writes:
Yes, evolution is a fact and the Theory of Evolution is the only real explanation of that fact.
There is a difference between "Evolution" and "The Theory of Evolution"
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
quote:Let's see how well established the theory of evolution is. Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV?quote:Yes it is.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Kleinman writes: Let's see how well established the theory of evolution is. Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV? Nope, it doesn't work like that, it's your claim the the ToE isn't well founded. You now have to explain why. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
quote:You are half right ringo and to start the explanation why you are only half right, answer the same question I pose for Tangle. Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV?quote:Yes, evolution is a fact and the Theory of Evolution is the only real explanation of that fact.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
quote:The answer to the question I ask you contains the reason why the theory of evolution is not true. I'm trying to get you to figure this out yourself.quote:Nope, it doesn't work like that, it's your claim the the ToE isn't well founded. You now have to explain why.
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Genomicus Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
You are half right ringo and to start the explanation why you are only half right, answer the same question I pose for Tangle. Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV? I'm going to take a gander and guess that you've recently read Behe's The Edge of Evolution. Right?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
quote:Nope, do you want to try to answer this question? Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV?
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Genomicus Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 852 Joined: |
Why does combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV? Multi-valent drug approaches to HIV are more effective because there is a lower probability of the HIV population hitting on the right mutations to counter both drugs simultaneously. Next.
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 362 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
quote:Good, you are on the right track for understanding how random mutation and natural selection (rmns from here on) works. rmns is governed by the theorems of probability theory. So consider the simpler case when HIV evolves very rapidly to single drug therapy. How do compute this probability?
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