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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It isn't a question of chance "over" certainty. If there is ANY chance of something happening, no matter how small that chance is, then it is certain that it WILL happen, given enough time. You don't need a miracle to roll a seven; you just have to roll the dice until it happens.
If you would rather believe in chance over certainty....
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
No he didn't. He didn't "explain" it at all. He just repeated the same old tired platitudes.
... he explained the plausibility of Christianity much better than chance explains why we are the way we are. Phat writes:
If he thought a thousand to one was poor odds, he was ignorant of mathematics.
Lewis was not an ignorant man...
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm not trying to score points. I'm just trying to get you to think about what you say.
aside from scoring points in this argument... Phat writes:
I've read The Screwtape Letters and seen the movie version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Lewis writes a pretty good fantasy but I avoid apologetics and "inspirational" claptrap no matter who wrote it. According to what you've quoted, Lewis often didn't know what he was talking about.
... what do you really think of CS Lewis? Phat writes:
Who's he? What about Simon Greenleaf? Edited by ringo, : Thpelling.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There you go preaching chance again!
quote:If that quote attributed to Buddha is correct, Christianity is in fact based on what we do. quote:If that quote attributed to Linus Van Pelt is correct, how would you know? And what does that have to do with chance?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Don't confuse "accurate" with "correct". Accurate means he really did say that. Correct means he knew what the hell he was talking about. Buddha may have actually said what you quoted and he may have actually believed it but that doesn't make it true.
I don't know whether any of the internet quotes I find are correct unless I've verified the source in at least 3 different places. Phat writes:
On the other hand, we know that impersonal and random things do happen. But we do not know about any spook that's guiding things. THAT is the belief, so it might be false. What we KNOW is not false.
...its a false belief(in my opinion) in that its impersonal and random. Phat writes:
I don't think anybody disputes that there are consequences to our actions. Where Buddha descends into empty belief is in carrying the consequences over from generation to generation. Essentially, he reduces the responsibility of the following generations. That is in the vicinity of Original Sin.
What Buddha says...however...is that if fate exists it exists necessarily contingent on what we do.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So he saw himself as God's customer service representative. Keeping your existing customers happy is just as important as getting new customers.
Paul did far more than write business memos. Paul saw himself as an overseer appointed by God.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're taking words like "marketing" and "customer" too literally. Religion may not (always) be a cash-for-service transaction but stop and think: What really is the difference between "sharing your testimony" and selling a vacuum cleaner?
what makes you think it was a business? Phat writes:
He was in it for growing an organization, or a movement wasn't he? Doesn't the Red Cross market itself? Doesn't the YMCA market itself? Doesn't the Ku Klux Klan market itself? Even if the goal isn't cash, it's still marketing.
There appears to be little evidence that Paul was in any way in it for growing a business. He felt led to spread the good news of the Gospels to the non Jew. Phat writes:
We don't need to spread that message. It's innate. What we need to spread is the message that religion shouldn't prevent us from doing the right thing. That was Jesus' message to the Pharisees: Follow the spirit of the law instead of the letter; do the right thing even on the Sabbath.
Perhaps it would be the same as if we sought to spread the message of good works and personal accountability to every soul on earth. Phat writes:
Customer service. What Microsoft is selling isn't really the software itself; it's tips on how to get around the bugs in the software.
What is the difference between a business and free shareware?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Or orcs and hobbits. Or anything else that has no real effect on our lives.
I thought it odd, however, that these people did nothing but talk about God and Jesus and actually enjoy it as much as the rest of us would enjoy a football game and talking about the players.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Just a nitpick: According to Genesis 2-3, God didn't want us to have the knowledge of good and evil. We acquired it against His will. If He wants us to infect the world with it, that's Plan B.
... God has given humans the ability to understand right and wrong, good and evil, and wants us to infect the world with that point of view.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Nobody who reads the gospels objectively is going to reach that conclusion. The resurrection is one of the red flags that tells us the story is fiction. Like the talking snake in Genesis, you might as well have a flashing neon sign to tell you not to take it literally.
You are an atheist but let's assume that you look at the Gospel accounts and you come to the conclusion that Jesus was resurrected.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Well, objective reading and critical thinking are pretty much hand-in-glove. Are you saying that only atheists/critical thinkers read objectively? I'm saying that people who read objectively are not going to conclude that the resurrection is real because objectively resurrections don't happen. It may be possible for theists to read objectively in some cases but if they conclude that the resurrection is real, they're not.
Phat writes:
Yes, exactly, in every case.
In this case, objectivity equates with unbelief. Phat writes:
That's what I said. What's your objection?
I did not reach my conclusion regarding belief simply by reading. Phat writes:
I didn't say it does. I said that belief without evidence is not objective. Why are you guys so in love with objectivity that you want to claim you have it when you don't?
The bottom line is either you believe or you don't. Neither decision makes you superior to the other guys. Phat writes:
That applies to believers too.
He who has an ear let him hear.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You didn't ask a question. You made an assumption and I pointed out why that assumption can only lead to nonsensical conclusions.
Your answer is a cop-out and obviously doesn't answer the question I asked. GDR writes:
That isn't objectivity.
Frankly, I objectively, after reading both the pros and cons, came to the conclusion that the most reasonable conclusion was that Jesus was resurrected.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm the first one to say that you can't be objective all by yourself - i.e. objectivity requires consensus. But consensus doesn't necessarily add up to objectivity. If you add subjective beliefs, you just get a bigger pile of subjective. And in the case of Christianity, the consensus against is far bigger than the consensus for.
If a large group of individuals share a subjective belief, however, it would be under consideration as an objective (Object of our Faith=Jesus)
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Objectivity requires setting aside your biases and no human being can do that reliably. You may stumble on "the right answer" by yourself. You may convince yourself that you're being objective. But until somebody else looks at your process, you shouldn't be sure you're being objective.
My initial impression is that objectivity is independent of how many people agree....
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Don't confuse "objective" with "true". Objectivity is about the process, not the result.
The theory of gravitation did not fail to be objective before consensus formed. NoNukes writes:
It can but it seldom does. The fools are more likely to be the lone wolves. Objectivity exists even when your peers are fools. My point being, again, that you shouldn't try to fool yourself into thinking you're "being objective" all by yourself. Asking your peers for confirmation is almost a required step in the objective process.
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