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Author Topic:   Explaining the pro-Evolution position
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 196 of 393 (792615)
10-12-2016 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 8:12 PM


The theory of evolution doesn't explain anything. It doesn't explain how rmns works, it doesn't explain how recombination works.
The theory of evolution is mutation, selection, recombination, drift, lateral gene transfer, etc; basically, transmission genetics plus the law of natural selection. It is the theory of evolution because it is supposed to account for the facts of evolution --- from pathogens acquiring resistance to the descent of birds from dinosaurs. So far, it seems to be doing quite a good job.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 8:12 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 197 of 393 (792616)
10-12-2016 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Coyote
10-11-2016 10:36 PM


Re: Kleinman's argument
Rather than handing out reading or watching assignments, it is preferred that arguments be entered into the debate in one's own words and that links be used only as references.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 198 of 393 (792617)
10-12-2016 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 6:44 PM


Re: It's already peer reviewed
Kleiman writes:
I do think it is really weird to think that a T Rex red blood cell could last 70 million years.
So, you're still avoiding the question. Are you a YEC?

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 199 of 393 (792618)
10-12-2016 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 9:56 PM


Re: Birds and HIV
Kleiman writes:
Last I checked, nobody has sequenced the dinosaur genome except in Jurrasic Park.
Ah, great. Now we're getting somewhere with a creationist. So did those dinosaurs have more or less genetic information than birds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 9:56 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 200 of 393 (792619)
10-12-2016 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Kleinman
10-10-2016 7:20 PM


Re: The reason the theory of evolution is not true
Kleinman writes:
If dinosaurs wanted to fly,...
They didn't. Several extinct lineages may have evolved flight, and one species evolved into birds, but the overwhelming majority of dinosaur species remained terrestrial, and absolutely no species "wanted" to fly. Flight was not and is not a target at which evolution aims.
There are no targets.
Legend tells of how Robin Hood, on his deathbed, fired an arrow into the forest and asked to be buried wherever it chanced to fall. If a creationist came across the grave and heard the story he would, of course, wonder at the extraordinary improbability of Robin hitting the right spot!
Kleinman writes:
...they will need the alleles that would enable them to do this. And there are too many genetic loci needed to be transformed for scales to become feathers by rmns.
How many is "too many"? On what time scale? What's the limit to the number of changes which can take place on a genome?

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 201 of 393 (792620)
10-12-2016 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 7:17 PM


Re: The reason the theory of evolution is not true
Kleinman writes:
Do all modern reptiles also have genes for scales and feathers as well?
Well, all modern birds have both scales and feathers. So, I'm not too sure why you asked that question.
I can't think of any modern reptiles having both scales and feathers.
I'm not too sure why you asked the question.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 202 of 393 (792621)
10-12-2016 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by AZPaul3
10-11-2016 9:01 PM


Re: It's already peer reviewed
And, of course, no T. Rex blood cells have been found.

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Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 203 of 393 (792623)
10-12-2016 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by JonF
10-12-2016 8:41 AM


Re: It's already peer reviewed
The answers to this one from YEC's will be funny.
Apparently, from creationist sources, Dr Mary Schweitzer was supposed to have squeezed soft tissue out of those bones...

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 204 of 393 (792625)
10-12-2016 9:07 AM


Moderator Request
This thread, Kleinman's thread (I think it is safe to call it Kleinman's now), did not pass through the normal thread proposal process, but I think his claims are clear:
  • The theory of evolution is not true. This is demonstrated by combination therapy for AIDS, and he can prove it mathematically (Message 5 and forward).
    My analysis of discussion on this subtopic so far: The ratio of Kleinman actually showing math to his claims of having done math is minute. I only recall one Kleinman post with math and it was addition.
    Taq alleged that Kleinman's model is false because he's fallen into the sharpshooter fallacy trap (msg=144 and Message 145) . Kleinman's response in Message 172 was a handwave.
    Bottom line: It would be helpful if Kleinman could show his model correct, then show the math.
  • Random mutation and natural selection could not produce birds from dinosaurs (Message 55 and forward; Kleinman prefers reptiles to birds rather than dinosaurs to birds, but reptiles are more distantly related). Dr Adequate has been pressuring Kleinman to defend this claim, and I'm unable to weave Kleinman's responses into a coherent defense, and others may be having the same problem.
    Bottom line: It would be helpful if Kleinman could explain why this claim is true, then show the math.
Normally I wouldn't request people to show the math, but the foundation for Kleinman's claims is that he's done the math that proves his claims, so therefore he should show the math.
I find the rmns acronym rendered in lowercase a bit unreadable and suggest substituting any of RM/NS, RM-NS, RMNS.
Please, no replies to this message, just take these requests into account during discussion.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 205 of 393 (792642)
10-12-2016 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 8:12 PM


Kleinman writes:
The theory of evolution doesn't explain anything. It doesn't explain how rmns works, it doesn't explain how recombination works.
It explains why we get a different strain of flu every year - the flu bugs mutate and the mutant strains that survive are the ones that survive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 8:12 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 206 of 393 (792654)
10-12-2016 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 7:31 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:
What each of the different variants share in common is that they must amplify (increase in number) before there is a reasonable probability of another beneficial mutation occurring on a member of that lineage.
And this is a problem how?
What determines if a mutation is beneficial or not is whether the variant can amplify (increase in number). In a very limited sense, amplification does not have to occur to improve the probability of a beneficial mutation occurring, a small number lineage which doesn't grow in size over the generations can have enough replications (the random trial) over many generations to improve the probability of another beneficial mutation occurring on a member of that lineage.
I am still waiting for you to explain how this is a problem for rmns.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 207 of 393 (792655)
10-12-2016 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 7:41 PM


Re: paths
My mathematical model predicts the behavior of every real, measurable and repeatable example of rmns.
Then please use that model on vertebrate genomes and show us which genetic differences between species could not be produced by rmns. If you can't do that, THEN WHAT ARE YOU GOING ON ABOUT?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 7:41 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 208 of 393 (792656)
10-12-2016 4:37 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
There has been a call to see the mathematics of rmns. So let's do it. To make it a bit clearer, we will do this mathematics in the context of a real example of rmns measured in an experiment done by Weinreich and published here: icommons.harvard.edu In this experiment, he measured the mutations which would give e coli resistance to a particular antibiotic
What Weinreich el al found was that there were a variety of variants which evolved resistance to the antibiotic. It took 5 mutations to achieve high resistance to the drug but different combinations of mutations could accomplish this. What he found was that the first beneficial mutation determined what the other required mutations would be. So for one particular variant, you can label the set of 5 mutations to give resistance A1, B1, C1, D1 and E1, for another variant, you can label the mutations A2, B2, C2, D2 and E2 and for a third variant, you can label the mutations A3, B3, C3, D3 and E3 and so on
What each of the variants have in common is that the sequence of mutations for a particular variant must always give improved fitness. So here is how you would do the mathematics for the general case of a variant getting mutations A, B, C, D, and E where each additional beneficial mutation in the evolutionary trajectory gives improved fitness to reproduce against the antibiotic selection pressure.
There are two random trials in this problem, the principle random trial is the replication where there are two possible outcomes, either a mutation occurs at the particular site or a mutation does not occur at the particular site. The second random trial for this problem is the mutation itself. When a mutation occurs, it may not be the beneficial mutation, it could be a detrimental or neutral mutation, neither would contribute to improved fitness of that member. So to write out the possible outcomes for a mutation at a particular site, we can use the addition rule of probabilities for mutually exclusive event.
P(−∞ < X < +∞) = P(Ad) + P(Cy) + P(Gu) + P(Th) + P(iAd) + P(iCy) + P(iGu)
+ P(iTh) + P(del)+ = 1
Where Ad, Cy, Gu and Th are the bases, P(Ad) would indicate the probability that Ad was substituted and so on, P(iAd) would indicate that an Ad was inserted, P(del) would indicate that the base was deleted, and ... indicates any other mutation that could possibly occur. What can be said with mathematical certainty about each of the terms in this equation, the value for each of the terms ranges between 0 and 1. One of these terms also represents the beneficial mutation. So define a term, P(BeneficialA) such that if the substitution of Ad is the beneficial mutation, P(BeneficialA) = P(Ad). If the substitution of Cy is the beneficial mutation, P(BeneficialA) = P(Cy) and so on.
Now, define a term, 𝜇, the mutation rate the probability (frequency) that an error in replication will occur at a particular site in a single member in one replication. With these definitions, we can compute the probability that mutation A will occur in a single replication of some member of the population.
P(A) = P(BeneficialA)𝜇
We'll stop at this point for questions, comments, complaints...
Edited by Admin, : Break up the large paragraph into smaller paragraphs and add a little additional spacing.

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Taq, posted 10-12-2016 4:43 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 211 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-12-2016 5:06 PM Kleinman has not replied
 Message 213 by Admin, posted 10-12-2016 6:40 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 209 of 393 (792657)
10-12-2016 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 8:58 PM


Re: Kleinman's argument
Kleinman writes:
So you have the genetic sequences for dinosaurs?
We have plenty of living species whose genomes we can compare. For example, we have chimps and humans. When we use mutation rate, population size, and generation time to calculate the divergence time for genetic data you get 5-8 million years which matches the hominid fossil record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 8:58 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 210 of 393 (792658)
10-12-2016 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Kleinman
10-12-2016 4:37 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
Kleinman writes:
It took 5 mutations to achieve high resistance to the drug but different combinations of mutations could accomplish this.
Can you name a single beneficial difference between any two vertebrate species that required 5 simultaneous mutations? If not, THEN WHAT ARE YOU GOING ON ABOUT??????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2016 4:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
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