Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Most US Christians Heretics, Evangelicals Hereticalest
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 1 of 26 (792645)
10-12-2016 12:45 PM


Story here.
Only participants who called the Bible their highest authority, said personal evangelism is important, and indicated that trusting in Jesus’ death on the cross is the only way of salvation, were labeled evangelical. They totaled 586 survey-takers.
Everyone expected them to perform better than most Americans. No one expected them to perform worse. Seven in ten evangelicalsmore than the population at largesaid that Jesus was the first being God created. Fifty-six percent agreed that the Holy Spirit is a divine force but not a personal being. They also saw a huge increase in evangelicals (28 percent, up from 9 percent) who indicated that the Third Person of the Trinity is not equal with God the Father or Jesus, a direct contradiction of orthodox Christianity.
Still, if they're a bit flaky on minor theological issues like the Trinity, at least they're rock solid on the more important tenets of the faith such as voting Republican.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 2:38 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 4 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-12-2016 5:41 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 10-13-2016 2:40 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 18 by dwise1, posted 10-16-2016 2:36 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 26 (792647)
10-12-2016 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
10-12-2016 12:45 PM


Contradictions
On these first 6 questions, I answered this way:
1-Not Sure
2-Yes
3-No. Good deeds have nothing to do with salvation.
4-Yes. God is perfect...not simply some fumbling character in a book.
5- Yes. God hears every prayer too
6- Yes. We become the decisions (and actions) we make.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-12-2016 12:45 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 10-12-2016 3:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 15 by Rrhain, posted 10-14-2016 5:03 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 3 of 26 (792649)
10-12-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
10-12-2016 2:38 PM


Re: Contradictions
Phat writes:
4-Yes. God is perfect...not simply some fumbling character in a book.
Yes, the ebola virus was the work of pure genius.
5- Yes. God hears every prayer too
But chooses to do nothing about them.... Lovely guy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 2:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 4 of 26 (792665)
10-12-2016 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
10-12-2016 12:45 PM


Taking a plunge into my 4th thread in the last 60 days (fireworks anybody?)
The link (and related links) talks about 2 different issues when it laments ignorance among evangelicals.
The doctrines from creeds (essentially the Church Councils from 325 to 787 A.D) and the Bible itself.
quote:
Evangelical writer Eric Metaxas remarked on BreakPoint last week that if Americans took a theology exam, their only hope of passing would be if God graded on a curve. He’s right. In knowing both the content of the Bible and the doctrinal foundations of Christianity, we Americans aren’t just at the bottom of our class. We are, as Ross Douthat argues in his book, Bad Religion, a nation of heretics.
A survey of 3,000 people conducted by LifeWay Research and commissioned by Ligonier Ministries found that although Americans still overwhelmingly identify as Christian, startling percentages of the nation embrace ancient errors condemned by all major Christian traditions. These are not minor points of doctrine, but core ideas that define Christianity itself
....
Their orthodoxyand consistencyended there. More than half went on to indicate that Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God, a heresy known as Arianism, which the Council of Nicaea condemned in 325 A.D.
Of course, most of these accidental blasphemers aren’t preparing to revise the resulting Nicene Creed and preach a creaturely Christ. Rather, bizarre contradictions like this illustrate how many Americans don’t understand or even care what the Trinity means (although they say they believe in it, likely out of habits learned growing up in church).
....
For those who don’t profess Christianity, gaining a basic understanding of the creeds and Scriptures of the religion that built our civilization isn’t a bad idea, either.
Survey Finds Most American Christians Are Actually Heretics
Then a link in the thread lead here.
quote:
One thing is certain: Americans love the Bible. A recent report from The American Bible Society and Barna Group finds that two-thirds of the nation believe the Bible contains everything a person needs to know in order to live a meaningful life. And a vast majority of folks in this country still consider themselves Christians. But just how deep does their Christianity run?
Not very, according to the results of a survey released late last month by LifeWay Research. The survey, commissioned by Ligonier Ministries, asked 3,000 participants a set of 47 questions about foundational Christian beliefs. Many of the answers revealed a mishmash of heresy and confusion about Christianity’s most basic doctrines.
....
It’s not just the departures from these historic doctrines that should concern us, but the contradictory answers. It shows not only that Americans in general and evangelicals in particular have the wrong answers on basic Christian doctrines, but that they don’t really understand the concept of doctrine itself.
Page not found - Breakpoint
2 areas of ignorance.
First.
They don't understand that the Roman Empire with the papacy (and the Byzantine Empire) determined what they were supposed to believe - through the various councils that Protestants and Catholics (as well as eastern Orthodox) hold everyone to.
Second
They also don't understand the various diverse books of the Bible and the source of each. The evangelical fundamentalists see it more of an issue of "ignorance of the (entire) Bible", since one spurious document (forged in the name of John or Paul) can be quote mined to superimpose it's definition or description of something on all of the message of Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc.
One shouldn't ever confuse the Church Councils with the teachings of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, etc.(aside from the Apostolic Council of Acts 15 which was lead by James the brother of Jesus, but that one is ignored all the time anyway, Nicea is seen as the "first one" (or first consequential or important one) it seems.SIDE NOTE Catholics argue that Peter lead it), but the issue of Biblical illiteracy is a real interesting issue. Bart Ehrman commented on his (overwhelmingly/entirely Christian)students on a DVD I have, and it was interesting.
quote:
Jesus and His First Followers: What Current Archaeology and Biblical Research Are Telling Us
2005 Biblical Archaeology Society, Washington D.C.
[3rd hour long lecture titled:]
Discoveries of New Gospels: Te Case of the Gospel of Thomas
By Bart D. Ehrman
How many of you have read the Da Vinci code? All right, o.k. So, I started my class this last year, I teach this large class at Chapel Hill that has, you know, 350 students in it and it’s on the New Testament. So I started off my class this year doing something that I’m not sure is legal in a state university but I did it anyway. I started out by asking my students, I asked How many in here would agree with the proposition that the Bible is the inspired word of God? Voom! The entire room raises it’s hand. I said All right, so how many of you read The Da Vinci Code? Voom! [entire room]. Is that right? How many of you read the entire Bible cover to cover? Scattered hands. I said All right, now I’m not telling you that God wrote the Bible but that’s what you’re telling me. You’re willing to read a book by Dan Brown. I mean if God wrote a book, wouldn’t you want to see what he had to say? It’s a very strange [situation]
One almost doesn't know where to begin.
Fundamentalist preachers just love seeing surveys (and comments like the one from Ehrman) like this though. It causes them (preachers and evangelists) to have a cause to "teach people the truth about our great" religion "that we have failed to learn properly about" and to speak ever more boldly in the (what they claim to be the)name of Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. even more rigorously.
I see it as an evidence of people being shoehorned into compliance by a theologically imposed set of creeds and doctrines - held up by the state - for the last 2000 years, which never would have been possible if people could think for themselves. Not that people think too much or too hard (that's obvious). But there would clearly be diverse opinion, and a very diverse "Christianity" unlike what we have now.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-12-2016 12:45 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 5 of 26 (792669)
10-12-2016 6:11 PM


Fun fact, polls by the Public Religion Research Institute show that only 27% of Americans think that God controls the outcome of sporting events, but 56% of Americans think he controls everything.
In related news, it turns out that at least 29% of Americans don't know what "everything" means.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 26 (792684)
10-13-2016 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
10-12-2016 12:45 PM


More Questions
My Answers?
7) Disagree. None are righteous.
8) Disagree. God knows how we are.
9) Disagree, though technically yes. Damnation is a wee bit strong for running a red light.
10) Agree. God gave human authors inspiration for scripture.
11)Agree, but if the person has the Holy Spirit, they will interpret largely the same as every other Spirit filled reader.
12) Agree, but God never makes anyone do anything. We can freely choose to fail and end up damned. Why on earth would anyone want to fail, however?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-12-2016 12:45 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 9:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 10-14-2016 5:16 AM Phat has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 7 of 26 (792697)
10-13-2016 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
10-13-2016 2:40 AM


Re: More Questions
The Bible was written for each person to interpret as he or she chooses
11)Agree, but if the person has the Holy Spirit, they will interpret largely the same as every other Spirit filled reader.
'largely the same'? As evidenced by the copious numbers of Christian religions that exist, it appears that there is far too much vagueness with regards to the scripture and how it is being interpreted.
Consider the commandment of keeping the Sabbath day holy. Most Christians nowadays honor the Sabbath on Sunday. Yet anyone that knows the history of the scripture (and speaks a little Greek like I do) knows that 'Sabbath' is from the Greek word 'Σάββατο' (pronounced 'savvato'); which means 'Saturday'.
So if the vast majority of Christians are now honoring the wrong day, that seems like a pretty big snafu in my mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 10-13-2016 2:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 10-13-2016 10:13 AM Diomedes has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 26 (792699)
10-13-2016 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Diomedes
10-13-2016 9:49 AM


Re: More Questions
I was always taught that the word sabbath means rest. Thus, if one is commanded or even encouraged to rest one day a week, it can be a day of ones choosing.
Sabbath

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 9:49 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 10:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 9 of 26 (792700)
10-13-2016 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
10-13-2016 10:13 AM


Re: More Questions
I was always taught that the word sabbath means rest.
The root derivations of sabbath are unclear; but as I noted, sabbath is associated with a specific day of the week. Which is unequivocally 'Saturday' as evidenced by the Greek translation and the fact that when looking at a weekly calendar, Saturday is the last day of the week; from left to right, the week starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday.
Thus, if one is commanded or even encouraged to rest one day a week, it can be a day of ones choosing.
If you look at the commandment, it states the following:
quote:
"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy"
That to me indicates that god is referencing a specific day and asking people to keep that day holy. More details in Exodus are as follows:
quote:
"Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
I don't see any interpretations indicating that the day is variable. It seems to be stipulating that a specific day is honored as the sabbath.
And therein lies my point: if a book is so vague and open to interpretation, then how can it be a viable source of any ethical or moral standards? Even the commandments themselves are vague.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 10-13-2016 10:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2016 10:25 AM Diomedes has replied
 Message 11 by Theodoric, posted 10-13-2016 10:36 AM Diomedes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 26 (792701)
10-13-2016 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Diomedes
10-13-2016 10:23 AM


Re: More Questions
The root derivations of sabbath are unclear; but as I noted, sabbath is associated with a specific day of the week. Which is unequivocally 'Saturday' as evidenced by the Greek translation and the fact that when looking at a weekly calendar, Saturday is the last day of the week; from left to right, the week starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday.
Do you believe that the current calendar has some kind of continuity dating back to the time God commanded us to keep the Sabbath holy, or back to the creation of the universe? I personally find either idea difficult to believe.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 10:23 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 11:08 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 11 of 26 (792702)
10-13-2016 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Diomedes
10-13-2016 10:23 AM


Re: More Questions
Which is unequivocally 'Saturday' as evidenced by the Greek translation and the fact that when looking at a weekly calendar, Saturday is the last day of the week; from left to right, the week starts on Sunday and ends on Saturday
Not in Spanish speaking countries. The week starts on Monday and ends on Sunday.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 10:23 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 11:14 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 17 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-14-2016 3:15 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 12 of 26 (792705)
10-13-2016 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
10-13-2016 10:25 AM


Re: More Questions
Do you believe that the current calendar has some kind of continuity dating back to the time God commanded us to keep the Sabbath holy, or back to the creation of the universe? I personally find either idea difficult to believe.
I actually don't believe any of this; I am an atheist.
The point I was attempting to make is the level of interpretation that is apparent with regards to the bible and how believers essentially just cherry-pick what works best for them. Despite the fact that many also deal in absolute terms with regards to other areas of the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2016 10:25 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 10-13-2016 11:12 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 26 (792706)
10-13-2016 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Diomedes
10-13-2016 11:08 AM


Re: More Questions
The point I was attempting to make is the level of interpretation that is apparent with regards to the bible and how believers essentially just cherry-pick what works best for them.
The point I am making is that you've chosen a bad example to make your own point. There is simply no way to associate Sunday in the current Gregorian calendar with any particular day commanded in the Bible.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 11:08 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 14 of 26 (792707)
10-13-2016 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Theodoric
10-13-2016 10:36 AM


Re: More Questions
Not in Spanish speaking countries. The week starts on Monday and ends on Sunday.
Correct. And that is due to the fact that most are Roman Catholic. And while it is unclear, most agree that Pope Sylvester changed it around 300 AD.
Note that most in the Jewish faith honor the sabbath as Saturday. As do Seventh Day Adventists.
Once again, back to my original point: with this much interpretation and ambiguity, why do so many believers deal in absolutes when they themselves can't agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Theodoric, posted 10-13-2016 10:36 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 15 of 26 (792765)
10-14-2016 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
10-12-2016 2:38 PM


Re: Contradictions
Phat writes:
quote:
4-Yes. God is perfect...not simply some fumbling character in a book.
So why did god directly state that he made a mistake in killing everybody in the flood and promise Noah that he will never, ever do that again?
And it's even earlier. God creates Adam and then sees that "it is not good that the man should be alone." And instead of making a female human, creates all the other animals to be his help meet.
So no, god is not perfect. By his own admission and actions, it is trivially shown that he isn't.
Unless, of course, one is of the opinion that the Bible isn't actually an account of god.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 10-12-2016 2:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024