Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 892 (792759)
10-14-2016 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by dwise1
10-14-2016 12:13 AM


Re: Recent Polls and Election Predictions
Actually, they had learned from the Romney fiasco. By performing their postmortem of the 2012 election, they figured out exactly which groups they had to reach and what they had to do to win in 2016.
The problem is that their base disagreed and chose Trump.
I had not before considered this argument. It makes a lot of sense to me. The Republican party's difficulty here is that expanding their electorate via outreach also risks losing some of the base. And unfortunately for the Republican establishment, there is no path to rationalizing the base. Any attempt to move to the center simply provides an opportunity to for a tea party guy or worse by a demagogue like Trump to oust you during the primary. I simply don't see a path towards the center for the Republican party. But that's what the party bought into during the 60s.
Win or lose, I think the democrats are in a better position to evolve.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by dwise1, posted 10-14-2016 12:13 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 10-14-2016 12:48 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 62 of 892 (792812)
10-14-2016 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
10-14-2016 1:06 AM


Re: Recent Polls and Election Predictions
NoNukes writes:
Win or lose, I think the democrats are in a better position to evolve.
I am of two minds on that one, and am fascinated by the machinations of the whole political dance.
If you look at the Latino vote, they can be described as predominately conservative and probably more religious than the majority US population. I really think Republicans could court the Latino vote if they had the cajones to do it.
Overall, the Democratic platform is much more favorable to middle class families. Affordable health care, tax increases on the rich, social programs, paternity/maternity leave, affordable college, increasing the minimum wage . . . I could go on and on.
What do Republicans want to do that actually benefits the middle class? The only policy they seem to have is that if rich people have more money, maybe some of that wealth will fall off their table and the middle class can have the table scraps. Their only play has been to vilify the word "socialist" and vilify Democrats so that people will not focus on Republican policies.
I don't see why Republicans couldn't move towards the center since doing so would benefit people in their base. Not only that, but the extreme right wing of the US electorate is not going to suddenly vote for Democrats. If the Republican party breaks in two, the extreme right wing of that break is not going to form a coalition with Democrats. It is going to vote with centrist Republicans. The only problem would be the White House because a candidate needs a simple plurality to win compared to some other parliamentary systems where you need a majority coalition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2016 1:06 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 63 of 892 (792903)
10-14-2016 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Diomedes
10-13-2016 9:35 AM


Re: Recent Polls and Election Predictions
If Hillary wins and they take over the senate, I would love to see them appoint the most far left individual they can find. ...
Elizabeth Warren.
... Although my instincts tell me that if they the Republicans do lose the senate, they will use their lame duck time frame to rush Garland's nomination through the process.
There could be 3 opportunities for the next president, but ...
... so at least appointments can be approved
That is what I am truly hoping for. ...
The bigger problem is that the democrats need to learn how to win off-year elections -- they are likely to lose the senate in 2018, and then we are back to gridlock, with even more vengeance, not just misogyny but because it is Hated Hillary.
The fear Trump gambit won't work in 2018. You need social issues to bring out voters ... like the progressive platform issues:
Living wage
Universal Health
Free Community College
etc etc etc
The DNC (under DWS) blew it in 2014 and lost the senate ... when #FightFor15 was producing strikes and marches and lots of publicity, the DNC was silent. Same with #BlackLivesMatter.
The need to be FOR the people in order to get the people to vote for them.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 9:35 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 64 of 892 (792904)
10-14-2016 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Percy
10-13-2016 9:39 AM


Re: sigh
I don't think the race is close down your way, ...
It isn't. RI is a D+11 state on the Cook Preferred Voting Index, which means that whoever is the democrat will be the one to win our electoral votes.
That liberates me to vote my conscience.
Trump seems to me a dangerous combination of Groucho Marx and Adolph Hitler. ...
He doesn't have the brains to be either. He is a vengeful idiot that grew up rich, squandered more than he earned, and is the epitome of white male privilege with no conscience.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Percy, posted 10-13-2016 9:39 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 65 of 892 (792905)
10-14-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Theodoric
10-13-2016 10:12 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
On WikiLeaks, Journalism, and Privacy: Reporting on the Podesta Archive is an Easy Call
WikiLeaks: New York Times Propped Up Clinton, Subverted Sanders
Media To Voters: Drop Dead, We're Getting Hillary Elected
Just some articles I came across today.
Don't you dare act as if you know what I think or feel. ...
I didn't, but if the shoe fits.
... Just because people don't agree with your conspiracy theories does not mean they do not understand the gravity of the issues in this country and presidential race.
Like I said, I am not interested in convincing anyone, especially anyone not interested in finding out. Are all Bernie supporters now conspiracy theorists, or is this just you way to dismiss it.
As always, your "holier than thou" attitude is off putting and offensive.
LOL. Attack the messenger fallacy.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 10-13-2016 10:12 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2016 9:23 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 121 by Theodoric, posted 10-21-2016 3:18 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 66 of 892 (792906)
10-14-2016 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by New Cat's Eye
10-13-2016 11:25 PM


Re: sigh
I'm going to vote for Jill Stein for president in order to see if we can get the Green Party vote count over 5%.
Why? Why 5?
Then donations are tax deductible.
The problem democrats have is that they don't know how to get people to go to the polls -
Well, they haven't been gettin' me to the polls.
And that's why they lose off-year elections, as in 2014 when they lost the senate.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-13-2016 11:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 67 of 892 (792911)
10-15-2016 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by RAZD
10-14-2016 11:26 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Those are opinion pieces. I have had great respect for Glen Greenwald in the past, but he can quickly cross over the line from objective reporting. Again, none of these pieces provide evidence of the collusion you claim.
Again you claim to know who I am and what I think. Alas, you still do not. Emails and accusations are not evidence for what you claim.
I was a very strong Bernie supporter, financially, emotionally and physically. I walked the walk. Alas, Bernie lost. It is time to move on.
There are issues about the DNC, huge issues. Now is not the time to address them. The release of the email has pointed out that reform of the party is needed. Burning the place down is not the answer

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2016 11:26 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by anglagard, posted 10-15-2016 6:14 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 9:24 AM Theodoric has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 68 of 892 (792929)
10-15-2016 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Diomedes
10-13-2016 9:35 AM


Re: Recent Polls and Election Predictions
Diomedes posits:
Although my instincts tell me that if they the Republicans do lose the senate, they will use their lame duck time frame to rush Garland's nomination through the process.
Couldn't Obama simply withdraw the nomination November 9th???
"You had your chance, suckers..."

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Diomedes, posted 10-13-2016 9:35 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 10-15-2016 5:29 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied
 Message 70 by Diomedes, posted 10-15-2016 5:41 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 69 of 892 (792930)
10-15-2016 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by xongsmith
10-15-2016 5:15 PM


Vacant Federal Judgeships
Right now there are almost 100 Federal Judgeship vacancies with over 50 nominated but pending confirmation.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by xongsmith, posted 10-15-2016 5:15 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 70 of 892 (792931)
10-15-2016 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by xongsmith
10-15-2016 5:15 PM


Re: Recent Polls and Election Predictions
Couldn't Obama simply withdraw the nomination November 9th???
"You had your chance, suckers..."
I'd be the first one to piss myself laughing if that happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by xongsmith, posted 10-15-2016 5:15 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(2)
Message 71 of 892 (792932)
10-15-2016 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
10-15-2016 9:23 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Theodoric writes:
I was a very strong Bernie supporter, financially, emotionally and physically. I walked the walk. Alas, Bernie lost. It is time to move on.
No it is not. It is time to vote for those who support Sander's positions be it senator, representative, or school board member. It is an uphill task given how Democrats choose to fight one another over who can win instead of that which is right. If one tells the truth and supports all people regardless of tribal affiliation, the votes will come. I bet if one told the truth and supported what was clearly stated in the Gospels (among many other similar works), there is even a chance some evangelicals may give up on hate.
Bernie was sabotaged by the DNC -- period. Such actions do not rise to the moniker 'conspiracy' but rather 'politics as usual.'
I despise 'politics as usual' but also realize how difficult it is to change human nature.
I don't know if you have realized, but the electorate is angry and properly so, they know they are being screwed but some do not know how to solve the problem. The problem can't be solved by supporting those who caused the problem in the first place, this fact should be obvious to anyone.
Hillary Clinton is an expert at governing -- in the 1990's -- we are over 20 years past. I refuse to vote for her unless it keeps the turd golem Trump away from the suitcase. I hope I am wrong but I think Clinton will forget any promise to the electorate once the inaugural party starts and she is drinking 1952 Dom Perignon with Kissinger and Larry Sumners.
Meanwhile this feud you are having with RAZD is part of the reason we don't have single-payer health care or ranked voting. Both of you need to step back and realize we are all on the same side.
Edited by anglagard, : spelling dom perignon, what a suprise
Edited by anglagard, : single-payer not universal

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2016 9:23 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 10-16-2016 12:03 AM anglagard has not replied
 Message 73 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2016 12:23 AM anglagard has not replied
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 9:12 AM anglagard has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 72 of 892 (792935)
10-16-2016 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by anglagard
10-15-2016 6:14 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Bernie was sabotaged by the DNC -- period.
I don't see it.
If the DNC had bent over backward to help Bernie, he still would have lost the primaries. He did not lose because of sabotage. He lost because he did not have enough voters supporting him.
I don't know if you have realized, but the electorate is angry and properly so, they know they are being screwed but some do not know how to solve the problem.
How to solve the "problem" is simple. They have to show up and vote.
It isn't good enough to vote in presidential elections, but then skip voting for the midterm elections. That's what they are doing wrong.
Also, they have to work at the grass roots to build coalitions. It isn't sufficient for them to have a tantrum when your favorite candidate loses a primary. They have to be out there drumming up support for their ideas long before they even have a favorite candidate. Sitting home watching TV, or sending out tweets, or doing "likes" on facebook won't do it.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by anglagard, posted 10-15-2016 6:14 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2016 8:59 AM nwr has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(2)
Message 73 of 892 (792936)
10-16-2016 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by anglagard
10-15-2016 6:14 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
anglagard writes:
quote:
Hillary Clinton is an expert at governing -- in the 1990's
Huh? When did she hold elective office in the 90s? She was on the committee to try and reform healthcare, but she was the First Lady in the 90s. She was elected to the Senate in the 00s and was Secretary of State after. From whence does this "in the 1990s" come from?
quote:
I hope I am wrong but I think Clinton will forget any promise to the electorate once the inaugural party starts and she is drinking 1952 Dom Perignon with Kissinger and Larry Sumners.
Why? Do you honestly believe that she would put justices on the SCOTUS that would undo, say, Obergefell? Hobby Lobby? Citizens United? If the Senate (say, under the direction of Bernie Sanders who is now a Democrat) were to help put through legislation for Medicare for all, she'd veto it? She would reverse herself yet again and authorize TPP? Why do you think this?
Clinton has a 93% concordance with Sanders. What is in the 7% that you find so reprehensible?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by anglagard, posted 10-15-2016 6:14 PM anglagard has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 74 of 892 (792941)
10-16-2016 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by nwr
10-16-2016 12:03 AM


really?
If the DNC had bent over backward to help Bernie, he still would have lost the primaries. He did not lose because of sabotage. He lost because he did not have enough voters supporting him.
Voters purged from registration overwhelmingly Bernie supporters while areas of Clinton supporters not purged. Voters with registrations mysteriously changed so that they couldn't vote, predominantly young.
Evidence of machine tampering to record false results, always to Clinton benefit (a trick learned from the GOP).
Long lines in Bernie districts because of sudden cut-back on polling stations ... but not in Clinton districts.
Then add in the systemic rigging of closed primaries where independents could not vote, as in New York where you had to register democrat before the first debate to be able to vote in the primary. Half of Bernie's supporters were independents.
And add in the systemic rigging through the media (all owned by corporations that supported Hillary massively) so that even MSNBC rarely mentioned Bernie and the media blackout on his rallies,
Finally there is the systemic rigging of the superdelegates such that Bernie would have needed something over 60% of the popular vote to win.
Given all the deck stacking against him I find it incredible that he was only 10% behind of the "official" DNC "certified" popular vote at the end.
Bernie said the system was rigged at the beginning, but I think people were shocked by the degree of rigging and the degree of complacency about it -- dismissing it as "politics as usual" -- especially when election fraud was exposed and admitted (Nevada).
How to solve the "problem" is simple. They have to show up and vote.
It isn't good enough to vote in presidential elections, but then skip voting for the midterm elections. That's what they are doing wrong.
Agreed, and this is where the incompetence of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz first became apparent in 2014, when the democrats were handed a social issue on a silver platter and they ignored it: the protests, strikes and marches for $15/hr wages. That is also when they lost the senate. She should have been fired then, but hey, she was installed to support Hillary (2008 campaign chair, Tim Kane asked to step down to make room for her ... wonder what he got in that deal).
Also, they have to work at the grass roots to build coalitions. It isn't sufficient for them to have a tantrum when your favorite candidate loses a primary. They have to be out there drumming up support for their ideas long before they even have a favorite candidate. Sitting home watching TV, or sending out tweets, or doing "likes" on facebook won't do it.
And this is where the Bermie revolution continues today, thousands of people have stepped up to run for offices "from dog-catcher to senator" to get progressive issues back into the party. Here in RI we elected 13 "Berniecrats" in the primary, and they will be elected in November because RI is a D+11 state on the Cook Partisan Voting Index.
But our voting system has some severe systemic problems that perpetuate the two party system and the easy corruption of candidates to get funding to get elected. Bernie has shown us a path to deal with some of it, but it is going to take a much larger effort to change the system to enable third parties a viable role in American politics.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 10-16-2016 12:03 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 10-16-2016 9:27 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 87 by ramoss, posted 10-17-2016 9:06 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 10-17-2016 9:49 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 89 by Taq, posted 10-18-2016 2:46 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 75 of 892 (792942)
10-16-2016 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by anglagard
10-15-2016 6:14 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
No it is not. It is time to vote for those who support Sander's positions be it senator, representative, or school board member. ...
This is underway. Thousands have stepped up to run for office.
Bernie was sabotaged by the DNC -- period. Such actions do not rise to the moniker 'conspiracy' but rather 'politics as usual.'
Committing election fraud by changing or purging voter registrations and the like is not 'politics as usual' but criminal felony. Shrugging it off as 'politics as usual' by the press and talking heads is condoning fraud.
Voting for Hillary is voting to condone fraud and election tampering. Do we need UN oversight for our elections now?
Hillary Clinton is an expert at governing -- in the 1990's -- we are over 20 years past. I refuse to vote for her unless it keeps the turd golem Trump away from the suitcase. I hope I am wrong but I think Clinton will forget any promise to the electorate once the inaugural party starts and she is drinking 1952 Dom Perignon with Kissinger and Larry Sumners.
Public Face Hillary promises to enforce regulations against bankers while Private Face Hillary tells the bankers that the ones who know best how to regulate the industry are the bankers.
Public Face Hillary switched to oppose TPP, Private Face Hillary will approve it, likely as part of some "deal" with republicans, as she pulls back to incremental changes instead of actual fixes to things like healthcare and minimum wage.
Public Face Hillary has big words on her website about protecting Native American rights and helping to solve problems they have. Private Face Hillary is notably silent about the North Dakota Pipeline protests and issues. She also claims that Russians are behind environmental protests ... (funny how it is Russians behind all her problems this time around, not the vast right wing conspiracy).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by anglagard, posted 10-15-2016 6:14 PM anglagard has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024